Hongfire offline?

[Ram-0-Ram]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Hongfire is currently targeted by a DDOS attack.

If it's an attack, it's a small-scale one : during the past few days, the number of guest connections to the forum as been around 1,000~1,500 concurrent users. That would represent a rather small botnet, and any properly-set fail2ban/nftables filtering should be enough to deflect such attack.

Checking the site at regular intervals can give you a good grasp at what's going on : the software suffers massive slowdowns when there's more than 1,000 concurrent visitors, then begins to choke heavily when reaching about 1,300 users, leading in dropped connections (missing CSS, missing images) and simply won't respond to new connections anymore when numbers get higher than 1,500 people visiting the site.

Those are some really low volumes. In the meantime, Anime-Sharing has been serving pages to an average 10,000 users during the whole weekend without any stutter.

The culprit is known : it's vBulletin 5. This forum software is a horrid mess, with bad design and bad code. Hard to use and slow. This is what I wrote about it 3 months ago :

---

So, here we are. A new game from Illusion just came out. And out of habit, lurkers are visiting Hongfire to try to find and download the good ol' HF Patch or at least get some mods to have it translated and uncensored.

Now, the biggest issue is that this situation may last.

Modders want to access the site to upload their works. Players want to access the site to get their translations and uncensors. They won't suddenly disappear nor change their mind : they will simply force-refresh the board until it displays something (which is nothing, actually) then check the site again a couple hours later for new content, like they always did.

And thus, a wild paradox appears : in order to access Hongfire, we need to wait until people don't want to access Hongfire any more. And when that time will come, would you still want to access it ? Would you still want to upload your mods knowing that their audience is never going to be what it should be, since they'll become unavailable as soon as there's a bit of traffic ?

Personally, as the French guy I am, I think I'll simply go on strike. I won't post on Hongfire any more as long as it's in its current state.

Real culprit: "Lurkers". Comes suddenly out of nowhere. They wouldn't dare to post stuff on HF until they are finally lost in finding the solution of the problem. Sometimes I understand why some members got mad and left HF
Attention Modders:
Please hold your mods release until they go away. Active members deserve better than silent audience.

Edit:
Hello Cap Jam :D long time no post

 

[Checkmate]

I wonder why modders won't post their stuff here to help with easing HongFire's overload situation but it's probably because we are not HongFire.

 

[foxxyswords]

I wonder why modders won't post their stuff here to help with easing HongFire's overload situation but it's probably because we are not HongFire.

Don't know, I like this site's forums much better. I have been posting some stuff in the modding discussion

 

[tmvaegis]

I wonder why modders won't post their stuff here to help with easing HongFire's overload situation but it's probably because we are not HongFire.

Unfortunately, the interest in Illusion titles of any capacity seemed pretty abysmal when I spent time here every time HF went down. I do like how this forum is setup (now much more like the old HF than ever, due to the vBulletin update...), but as someone who enjoys sharing Studio/Poser pics, comics, and character creations, it can feel pretty lonely when interest is extremely low. :/

 

[Dr Yoshi]

Real culprit: "Lurkers". Comes suddenly out of nowhere. They wouldn't dare to post stuff on HF until they are finally lost in finding the solution of the problem. Sometimes I understand why some members got mad and left HF
Attention Modders:
Please hold your mods release until they go away. Active members deserve better than silent audience.

This attitude feels awfully wrong to me, honestly.

If you don't want to uselessly hurt yourself in the long run, don't rely on anyone else than you to appraise your self-worth and the value of your work. Acknowledging recognition from others helps to sustain morale, and taking constructive feedback into consideration is a great way to progress, but the base of your judgement and the source of your motivation should primarily comes from you, your close friends and people you consider as examples, mentors or experts.

And, when it comes to recognition and feedback, be positive and rational : actions and intentions speak louder than words.

Firstly, understand that on the Internet, the best form of recognition is traffic volume : the more the lurkers, the bigger the success. You should feel good when thousands of anonymous users visit a site where they can download your work, just like a painter feels rewarded when people visit his exhibition. They just pass by without saying a word, but don't forget that they wouldn't be there if they didn't have interest in what they see.
It wouldn't be fair to expect them to register and validate their mail address on a forum full of adult content, just to drop a "thank you" message and some feedback. When you get yourself some coffee at the supermarket, do you look out for the company that made it in order to tell them how much you like its taste and that you would kill to have the same one with a coarser milling ? Cherish the people who will go out of their way to thank you, but don't blame those who don't : they may not tell about it, but they enjoy what you're doing.

Secondly, know that from volumes come conversions. This is how online communities grow : out of thousands of lurkers, some will eventually register. Most of them will make it to get some form of support, because they cannot get the game to work, or cannot understand how your mod shall be installed. Once again, take it as a form of recognition : if they're willing to spend time to subscribe and post, it means that their interest is strong enough to make them go out of their way. If they complain, take it as positive feedback : it means that there are areas where you can improve. And if they don't say anything, you're golden : most of the time, it means they're too busy playing with the toys you provided to actually take the time to thank you.

Lastly, believe that those who take will eventually give back, according to their time and competence. How many of us begun their journey as lurkers before registering, contributing, providing feedback, and ultimately trying to release their own creations ? The role of a thriving community is to facilitate such conversions, not to impede them.

So, in the end, if you want positive returns, get your mindset straight. You won't get any good karma asking modders to stop releasing their works until the people that actually want to play with them disappear. Share and spread the love, my friends, because this is what builds communities.

Unfortunately, the interest in Illusion titles of any capacity seemed pretty abysmal when I spent time here every time HF went down. I do like how this forum is setup (now much more like the old HF than ever, due to the vBulletin update...), but as someone who enjoys sharing Studio/Poser pics, comics, and character creations, it can feel pretty lonely when interest is extremely low. :/

Get it rolling. Keep on spreading the love and it will grow.

I lurk a lot on "creative" threads, I steal a lot of ideas from the setups and characters I see out there, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't share back, though : I don't have the time nor the artistic sense needed to make anything that looks remotely good with the Studio apps.

I wonder why modders won't post their stuff here to help with easing HongFire's overload situation but it's probably because we are not HongFire.

Old habits die hard. But a switch can happen, and it can be massive. Look at what happened with the wiki : we lost a home and then settled back here. And it grew nice and fast.

And thanks for having us, by the way : you're a fine host, Checkmate.

 

[GIL★ギル]

Spoiler:

This attitude feels awfully wrong to me, honestly.

If you don't want to uselessly hurt yourself in the long run, don't rely on anyone else than you to appraise your self-worth and the value of your work. Acknowledging recognition from others helps to sustain morale, and taking constructive feedback into consideration is a great way to progress, but the base of your judgement and the source of your motivation should primarily comes from you, your close friends and people you consider as examples, mentors or experts.

And, when it comes to recognition and feedback, be positive and rational : actions and intentions speak louder than words.

Firstly, understand that on the Internet, the best form of recognition is traffic volume : the more the lurkers, the bigger the success. You should feel good when thousands of anonymous users visit a site where they can download your work, just like a painter feels rewarded when people visit his exhibition. They just pass by without saying a word, but don't forget that they wouldn't be there if they didn't have interest in what they see.
It wouldn't be fair to expect them to register and validate their mail address on a forum full of adult content, just to drop a "thank you" message and some feedback. When you get yourself some coffee at the supermarket, do you look out for the company that made it in order to tell them how much you like its taste and that you would kill to have the same one with a coarser milling ? Cherish the people who will go out of their way to thank you, but don't blame those who don't : they may not tell about it, but they enjoy what you're doing.

Secondly, know that from volumes come conversions. This is how online communities grow : out of thousands of lurkers, some will eventually register. Most of them will make it to get some form of support, because they cannot get the game to work, or cannot understand how your mod shall be installed. Once again, take it as a form of recognition : if they're willing to spend time to subscribe and post, it means that their interest is strong enough to make them go out of their way. If they complain, take it as positive feedback : it means that there are areas where you can improve. And if they don't say anything, you're golden : most of the time, it means they're too busy playing with the toys you provided to actually take the time to thank you.

Lastly, believe that those who take will eventually give back, according to their time and competence. How many of us begun their journey as lurkers before registering, contributing, providing feedback, and ultimately trying to release their own creations ? The role of a thriving community is to facilitate such conversions, not to impede them.

So, in the end, if you want positive returns, get your mindset straight. You won't get any good karma asking modders to stop releasing their works until the people that actually want to play with them disappear. Share and spread the love, my friends, because this is what builds communities.




Get it rolling. Keep on spreading the love and it will grow.

I lurk a lot on "creative" threads, I steal a lot of ideas from the setups and characters I see out there, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't share back, though : I don't have the time nor the artistic sense needed to make anything that looks remotely good with the Studio apps.




Old habits die hard. But a switch can happen, and it can be massive. Look at what happened with the wiki : we lost a home and then settled back here. And it grew nice and fast.

And thanks for having us, by the way : you're a fine host, Checkmate.

I've had conflicting views on this subject for a while, but that little speech of yours was certainly inspiring. You're absolutely right. Sometimes it's hard to keep on giving without more tangible forms of recognition, but demand and traffic are surely the most sincere and real ones. Also, I started doing what I do for myself, sharing it was an afterthought. So as long as you're doing what you want, I guess you're golden.

Thanks Doc, I'll remember those words in the future for sure. By the way, don't be shy to give the picture threads a shot sometime, you're more than welcome.

In other news, HF is still down. Small bursts of connectivity that are quickly brought down, and not much else. People here talk about DoS, but honestly, the first thing I thought was that the site wasn't able to handle traffic. Mostly considering how it had been behaving the last couple of months. It would be nice to hear and official statement by Hong at any rate. Just to have some peace of mind, and maybe an ETA.

 

[Ram-0-Ram]

This attitude feels awfully wrong to me, honestly.

I don't know what to say other than I have my respect for you. It's not that I want to say something bad, no! It's about avoiding say something that will lead to very bad misunderstanding. Well if lurkers are providing success to HF... I really don't mind at all and I take back my words, but I don't care about them even if thousands of lurkers downloaded my stuff. But you don't know what kind of lurkers I am talking about. One type is obviously the "un-registered" lurkers and they are everywhere in the internet. There is no stopping of that. Second are the "registered" lurkers. Those who signed-in only because they can't get the download link without "sign-up". They decided to post something after a long time.

User: XYZ
Joined Date: June, 2006
Post: 1
"No uncensor?.... No translation?.... Link it down!.... Want this mod ASAP!.....etc etc etc....

Any comments about these member's contribution to the community? It's not that I demanding them to come to modding section. Least they can post some useful links to other forums. They can post any hentai links, AV, or screen shots, comedy vids since they have the time and liberty to browse those stuff when they are in mood..... Why to keep the fun to themselves? Throw those links/stuff here to so we can also have some laugh and fun. I respect those members who recently joined and since they don't know what-else to do they at-least share their character's card in the up-loader thread. Even if that one post is a only contribution from them. Or the outfit they like they share it in studio thread or upload a character card wearing that outfit.

What the modders want to do it's up-to them and respect their work as always..... I will just sit in somewhere away and remain quiet.....

 

[gekigami]

Spoiler: hide

I don't know what to say other than I have my respect for you. It's not that I want to say something bad, no! It's about avoiding say something that will lead to very bad misunderstanding. Well if lurkers are providing success to HF... I really don't mind at all and I take back my words, but I don't care about them even if thousands of lurkers downloaded my stuff. But you don't know what kind of lurkers I am talking about. One type is obviously the "un-registered" lurkers and they are everywhere in the internet. There is no stopping of that. Second are the "registered" lurkers. Those who signed-in only because they can't get the download link without "sign-up". They decided to post something after a long time.



Any comments about these member's contribution to the community? It's not that I demanding them to come to modding section. Least they can post some useful links to other forums. They can post any hentai links, AV, or screen shots, comedy vids since they have the time and liberty to browse those stuff when they are in mood..... Why to keep the fun to themselves? Throw those links/stuff here to so we can also have some laugh and fun. I respect those members who recently joined and since they don't know what-else to do they at-least share their character's card in the up-loader thread. Even if that one post is a only contribution from them. Or the outfit they like they share it in studio thread or upload a character card wearing that outfit.

What the modders want to do it's up-to them and respect their work as always..... I will just sit in somewhere away and remain quiet.....

Oi, oi, don't get all mopy because of one small disagreement, we're in a debate thread

HUGE POST AHEAD NOT UNCOMPARABLE TO A SLICE OF LIFE NOVEL, READ AT YOUR OWN PACE (Or read the TL;DR, it's down there somewhere.)

Spoiler: hide

Now, on the subject of links, I believe Hongfire had gone down for a small while due to copyright issues, what with the site being used to post download links to paid games on DLSite & all that. Considering that, it's no wonder you see that more on Anime-sharing.

Actually, I'm currently wondering if perhaps a good chunk of the lurkers come from Anime-Sharing, regularly posting here, where they have the skills to be helpful to the community?

Anyways, I digress.
You might not be able to tell, but we've spoken a few times.
"Linkerman" should ring a bell

..Now, where was I..? Oh, yes.

Dude, if you check the date at which I joined Hongfire and the date at which I started actively posting & modding... There's a bit of a gap.

2010 to 2011, I only passed by to ask questions relating to issues and/or requests surrounding 3DCG mods.
I used my account for nothing else.

I was about before that, around 2008, but hadn't made an account since I didn't need to post in any way.

I was basically one of those non-contributive lurkers you spoke of.

At that time, I thought the community surrounding the games was surprisingly nice, and decided that I'd try to contribute if I had anything I considered of worth to contribute.
I never truly cared much about making pictures from the games or sharing characters, kind of felt cheap to me for some reason.

Now, we travel to 2011.

Tried modding @HomeMate, @AG2 and SB3.
Failed horribly, stayed away doing other things for a while.

PPD comes out. I see negative reviews whilst the wheel of grief turns.
I decide to wait it out until a game I'd like would come out.

That would turn out to be SBPR.
At the time, I had tackled using 3d-coat and Sculptris, but had no proper modeling program experience.
I saw SB3UGS come about, decided to try figuring out how to use it on my own (Hense, still lurking, not asking questions, ect.)

During that time, I failed a few times at importing hair and accessories to the game, which was my first goal.
Started leaving messages on boards, giving constructive criticism where I could, lazily posting here and there.

At some point, I stumbled upon a mod that was never completed; A mod that was meant to let you import your own head models to the game from the in-game menus after dragging& dropping it to the proper folder.

I mentionned how I'd have used it to modify the game's character expressions since I found them incredibly uncanny.

Enimaroah responded, told me that I could still do it, and that I could go to mod discussion for help.


Note that through all this, whilst the mods were for my personal use, I had always planned on releasing whatever I'd have put together, unless it was something as simple as disabling the poncho and putting the camisole to its own ID.


... I've probably lost the point of this huge-ass monologue at this point, but it's just to tell you that it's not because somebody lurks around, only asking for things here and there, that they're just going to abandon the place a la "Haha, see ya suckers!" type-way.

The best you can do is to redirect them to help, to provide the knowledge required for them to be able to do what they're asking for by themselves. To teach proper independence and altruism, ect ect.


... I've been writing this post for a little while now, not quite sure if it makes complete sense

TL;DR : I was a lurker for about 8 years or so, and I now contribute mods, from accessories, to blendshape changes, ect ect.

It's not because there's no contribution now that there won't be later. That's basically what tutoring a kid for years is for. So they give to society later.
Would you make them work in a mine while they go at school because they're otherwise not contributing anything and taking knowledge at the same time?

END OF TL;DR

... That might be a bit of an extreme argument, but whatever.
Hi Ramoram!

 

[FoolBoy]

Unfortunately, the interest in Illusion titles of any capacity seemed pretty abysmal when I spent time here every time HF went down. I do like how this forum is setup (now much more like the old HF than ever, due to the vBulletin update...), but as someone who enjoys sharing Studio/Poser pics, comics, and character creations, it can feel pretty lonely when interest is extremely low. :/

That and (for me) the fact that the most viewed and active picture-thread is the Loli-Thread ... and well i don't know about THAT

 

[gekigami]

For me it's mostly the hassle of handling two sites at once every time I want to say something, if it ends up pertaining to both.

The moving of old threads might be a bit slow and tedious as well.
Community would be divided if HF ever came back online, or stayed operative after changes had happened.

That would mean a great slowdown in productivity, and... Well..
It'd basically be like a 65% fragmented SATA hard-drive filled to the brim.

 

[tmvaegis]

That and (for me) the fact that the most viewed and active picture-thread is the Loli-Thread ... and well i don't know about THAT

UGH, really? That's not something I want to hear. Me and paedo/loli are like oil & water...
That's pretty disconcerting.

 

[corocoro]

That and (for me) the fact that the most viewed and active picture-thread is the Loli-Thread ... and well i don't know about THAT

We try to be inclusive and accepting. Everyone has at least one fetish someone else finds disgusting—but as long as fantasies remain fantasies, there's no harm in it.
While there's no scientific consensus on whether or not the porn we look at shapes us as a person, we do know there's a disconnect between what people like to fantasize about and what people (would) enjoy in real life. I believe watching lolis doesn't make you a pedophile just as playing RapeLay doesn't make you a rapist.
Now, things like loli porn tend to be either shunned or outright forbidden at other places. It's hardly surprising that people would congregate here and as such there'd be an unproportional amount of views for said thread. It's hardly the one with the most replies, though. ;)

 

[DerKommisar]

oh hello again folks

 

[tmvaegis]

oh hello again folks

Well, hello there, good sir. ^_^

 

[Aastaroth]

Oi, oi, don't get all mopy... (snip)

Oh yeah, you pretty much explained how a lurker turns out to be a contributing member for the community. Well said
And Dr Yoshi, your opinion is really, really inspiring too!

Spoiler: Wall of Text Alert - I have warned you!

I am a bit more on the Dr Yoshi's and Linkerman's (aka GeekyGami) way of thinking. Just because a lurker is still silent now, doesn't mean that he is not going to contribute in the future.
Perhaps 1000 lurkers will take things away silently. Perhaps 50 of them will just repeatedly ask faqs. But then, one of them will start to be more active (for whatever reason), and eventually becomes a contributing member in the society.

I, myself, was also a lurker for years, just like Linkerman. A lurker which never dared to ask, perhaps a little bit selfish as well. Even when I had problems, I would just silently follow the thread without saying a word. While English is not my first language, asking even a single question made me feel uncomfortable too. So I would say, language barrier is one crucial factor to stop lurkers from stepping out of their comfort zone.

Stop posting mods trying to lower down the lurker's traffic isn't something positive, and not a wise move IMO. How would lurkers know that modders deliberately holding their mods? No, they will just keep visiting, trying to get into HF to see what mods will be there. It just won't work in short-run, and something that can harm the community (and the active members) if you do it in long-run.

Though I can understand why some of the modders got frustrated when there are so many lurkers that do not want to express their feeling. That's why, Chinese forums usually force the lurkers to comment on the threads before they get the download links. But is it a good move? To be honest, I visited Chinese forums for 10+ years and I can tell you that it is a BAD move as well. You are just turning lurkers into some "active" members who spam their replies to get stuff they wanted. Comments like "thx a lot", "bump", or even "666666666666" flood most of the Chinese forums. Forum moderators spend hours of effort trying to clean up most of these "garbage" replies, but still, 90% of the remaining replies are still not meaningful to read. Constructive comments won't be forced in that way. Thread replies go up, but you will have a hard time to dig out some useful comments from those mediocre replies. And this is what I don't like posting mods to Chinese forums, even I can get hundreds of replies per thread. HF yes, it has relatively few replies, but the reply quality is much more higher than those in Chinese forum. So it really depends on whether you want quantity or quality in your thread. There is no perfect way to "force" every people to truly express their feelings in your mod thread.

[TLDR]

Let me use Dr Yoshi's "exhibition" example to sum it all up: There is an exhibition full of crowds visiting different booths for different things. Most of them take things away, without saying a word. Only a few give you comments about your stuff. You and a few others don't like this, and stop opening your booth for a while, but the number of people doesn't substantially drop because crowds can still visit other booths.

You, then, try to force everybody who comes to your booth to leave comments on a paper before they get their stuff. The number of comments substantially increased, so you feel accomplished. But you see a lot comments like "this is awesome" or "I like it". You feel tired reading everything repeatedly, and missed some constructive comments as well. So yeah, which would you prefer? Quantity, or quality?

[/TLDR]

(okay... I know it could be still a bit TLDR... anyway)

While I don't really like Facebook itself, implementing a "like" feature would be a better way to deal with those lurkers (still far from the best). If you really, really want the lurkers to do something, let them press that little "like" icon before getting the stuff. (Don't know if vbulletin 5 can implement this, anyway...) But then, you will get used to it quite fast and eventually get unsatisfied. What really motivates a modder (at least, for myself), is comments that truly express their gratitude from the bottom of their hearts, and constructive opinions that are really inspiring, be it positive or negative. These comments are rare items, so you should cherish them, but you can't rely on them. The most important thing is still, your interest in modding. Enjoy what you are doing. The process to mod. The accomplishment once you finished it. Rinse and repeat. Thinking those comments and feedback as something nice-to-have but not a necessity, and you won't get as many frustration or disappointment as before.

Argh, enough rant. Maybe quite off-topic as well. Didn't expect I typed so much once again :P

 

[corocoro]

While I don't really like Facebook itself, implementing a "like" feature would be a better way to deal with those lurkers (still far from the best). If you really, really want the lurkers to do something, let them press that little "like" icon before getting the stuff. (Don't know if vbulletin 5 can implement this, anyway...)

We do have that. There should be something similar for vB5 as well.

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[Aastaroth]

@corocoro

Thanks for letting us knowing this! I personally don't like to implement various rules to disallow people reading my thread, but this would be really useful for modders who only want to share their works with their target audience :)

 

[effoff]

I've found if you are fortunate to get into HF's Honey select main page, You're best friend is patience! Instead of clicking the link you want straight away What you need to do is hover the Cursor over the link Then you'll see A working symbol appear at the top of the screen when that close's Then proceed This is how i navigate HF! But you still need to get into HF, That my friends is in the lap of the gods I'm afraid :)

 

[11Z11]

just wait till it's late i got in easy(like midnight) and there were 1000 something visitors there

 

[tmvaegis]

just wait till it's late i got in easy(yesterday) and there were 1000 something visitors there

Heh heh, it fluctuates; plus, it's always "late" somewhere, right? Guess it depends on where you live, as results may vary.
Even with just around 1000 visitors, sometimes it can be a pain.

 

[11Z11]

seriously loaded for me very well no lag

 

[gekigami]

It had done so for me for a moment, but now it's back to timeouts again..

& I thought I could finally post an update in the SBPR mod discussion thread

 

[pingtoryan]

The bursts of speed seems to get better...that's gotta be a rather sloppy DDoS or just crap software...the timing is too impeccable...

 

[gekigami]

The bursts of speed seems to get better...that's gotta be a rather sloppy DDoS or just crap software...the timing is too impeccable...

Well, somebody mentions that Hongfire now works fine, and suddenly it no longer does.
My theory?

A sudden flock of over a thousand users jumped at the opportunity to get on... At the same time,
causing it to distribute timeouts again


Nevermind, there's only 624 users on..?

 

[Saeki]

it's been almost 4 hours and i'm still trying to load the HS modding thread to edit my post... holy fucking shit.