What do you think about BL elements appearing in otome works?

[Yuki3548]

damn LMAO i feel like this wouldve worked in denpa (the genre) but a romance-focused otome is.. a bit harsh;;;;

NEEDY GIRL OVERDOSE is exactly that kind of story ()

 

[kazis]

damn LMAO i feel like this wouldve worked in denpa (the genre) but a romance-focused otome is.. a bit harsh;;;;
whats the name btw?

It's not from an otome, it's from a horror bl visual novel, so I guess it kind of works????... but I still felt very betrayed for the mc because he relied on this "imaginary friend" a lot The title is Shingakkou -Noli me tangere- (if you're still interested).

 

[ninnikuryona]

NEEDY GIRL OVERDOSE is exactly that kind of story ()

oh i loved this game!!!!! and the twist felt very appropriate for the story it wanted to tell:)

 

[ninnikuryona]

It's not from an otome, it's from a horror bl visual novel, so I guess it kind of works????... but I still felt very betrayed for the mc because he relied on this "imaginary friend" a lot The title is Shingakkou -Noli me tangere- (if you're still interested).

OOOHHHHH SHIT WAIT!!!!!! i heard its a very dark kamige but i know literally nothing else about it and woah:00 maybe i shouldnt postpone it anymore..... it doesnt feel like we're getting an official translation anytime soon anyway >_<
thank you! i am in fact still interested LOL

 

[kazis]

OOOHHHHH SHIT WAIT!!!!!! i heard its a very dark kamige but i know literally nothing else about it and woah:00 maybe i shouldnt postpone it anymore..... it doesnt feel like we're getting an official translation anytime soon anyway >_<
thank you! i am in fact still interested LOL

IT REALLY IS WORTH PLAYING!! You won't even lose a lot from this spoiler to be honest (you kind of get the feeling after several routes that something is off). It's spooky, but also very interesting! (and the mc can be both top and bottom, so) <- not vital info, but I hid it in case you want to go in completely blind

 

[Doglo]

Im so happy so many comments in this thread share the same opinion

I don't like the concept at all, honestly. It's simply not what people want when they purchase an otome game - its legit called otome for a reason. The MC has to be a woman, it's a maiden's game. It doesn't make sense when they add such concepts for appeal...because it's a completely different genre.

For some reason people get upset by this but like....otomes are not BLs. BLs, then, won't provide the same level of satisfaction.

 

[Doglo]

its kinda weird how being insane about bl is considered a good thing, but if a woman expresses her desire to be pampered/praised/loved by a fictional man, she immediately gets written off as a dumb cringy person. ew you want this male character to love YOU instead of another male? embarrassing!! and this is considering how the west tried to hop on the yumejoshi train! who is the weirdo in this scenario??

 

[Doglo]

I hate it. It's just destroying the whole genre. that's very disrespectful to the creator of the otome genre. because the gaming world is all taken over by men, and this genre was created to be a safe place for women.

This!! People forget otome, in a way, is a world building mechanism for women to explore their comfort zones in different concepts! To understand different mindsets of men, characters, stories, history. Men are the LIs, yes, but the center is on the female's perspective, growth and learning from the MC.

One could argue that it can be introduced in a secondary lens, but then I'd also ask why is it that this is the concept one would gravitate to when it hasn't been like that for decades - and has worked just fine without it - and the insistence of bringing this notion to an audience that doesn't want it to begin with - especially audiences that aren't Western based.

 

[ryuntsai]

For otome games, I don't mind characters like a "Mama-san" or whose role is to support the story and contribute to the setting appear. If that's just part of their character archetype and they aren't heavily involved in the romance or the ending, then I don't really have an issue with it. In other words, I'm fine with them being there as transitional/supporting characters in the story. I think it's perfectly okay if they're only there to serve the plot and NOT to be part of the plot/ending. Also, in general games, I'm also fine with BL or any kind-flavored dialogue IF THEY'RE JUST THERE FOR COMEDY. (like the anime Grand Blue HAHAHAHAH)

But yeah, in Otome, i prefer seeing handsome LIs stay with the MC n-n

 

[blissn]

Personally, just as I wouldn't expect otome related content in BL/GL, I don't want BL/GL content in otome. I have no issues with characters of different sexual orientations existing in the games in the concept of supporting the story, but I don't like how otome gamers are somehow viewed harshly for not wanting more bl content in their spaces.

 

[Jpapple]

If it's between the side characters, it doesn't matter. Their romances are usually weak and uninspiring. If it involves the main characters as long as it's not clingy and a light flirt, I can accept it. But honestly that rarely happens with the main leads in any of the works? It depends on the relevance of BL in the context of plot. I don't like when in the BL works all side characters are gay, it just feels unrealistic to me. If all couples are straight, I don't care cuz it aligns with reality. I mostly hate BL fans who find irrelevant ships and see them everywhere, even when the characters completely mismatch and there are zero hints in the works. Sometimes BL fans twist any friendship.

 

[Shelia]

I don't really mind. I'd prefer it if each genre stayed within its own boundaries, but I don't have a problem with certain themes overlapping.

 

[sumprrson]

I've never seen BL elements in otome games but would like to understand why people are always saying that this is a problem.

For example, in Virche Evermore,

Spoiler

it is very clear that Hugo has a crush on Yves

but I do not consider this a "BL element" at all and honestly would like more of intercharacter relationships like these, even bisexual MLs. In VE's case the ML isn't even bisexual and doesn't learn of his friend's feelings so I really don't understand why people hate it so much and do think it's a bit homophobic.

Spoiler: my opinion on the VE case

Some may disagree but I think Hugo has all the right to hate the MC. some people say they hate him because he hates her and even kills her in one of the bad ends, but she's literally the cause of Yves's scar and the discrimination he faces from others, if you were him you would hate her too. I think it's quite homophobic if I may say so, as if it was the MC being in love with him and feeling hatred for someone who, despite unwillingly, caused him pain, everyone would understand it as the complicated slightly irrational feelings they are.

What I do think is a problem is actually when a game isn't otome, i.e. joseimuke games. It really pisses me off to find a game with cool characters but without any romance mechanics since I simply will not play it (example: Twisted Wonderland, I hate the gameplay loop and if there's no romance, or even interactions with the gender neutral MC as rewards then I will lose interest). I think some people may say these games have "BL elements" since the MC may be a man and there's a lot of shipping between characters (if the MC was an actual character and female then the shipping could be with her) but this is a bit less direct.

Overall I haven't yet played a game with actual BL mechanics such as the MLs being able to end up with each other if not romanced (Fire Emblem 3H has "bromance" endings but if they weren't cowards then what I mean would be something like it ) so I don't have a problem with it. Honestly I would like to be told what exactly are the BL elements in otome games. Honestly I'd like to be recommended some! I don't think I've seen otome elements in BL games either, I don't consider the existence of a straight couple an "otome element" so a side gay couple existing in an otome game isn't "BL" either.

I'd also like to ask, if you can't have anything not-straight in an otome game, then does that mean Chou no Doku Hana no Kusari isn't otome either? Because there's a lesbian route in it and no one complains about "yuri elements" even though that's an actual route (though not obligatory) and not just a side character. I personally don't care for it but wouldn't say that it harms the game in any way, lady Kyoko is an interesting character and certainly better for the MC than some of the guys...

(This was all said by someone with a BL profile pic lol)

 

[nyao]

its kinda weird how being insane about bl is considered a good thing, but if a woman expresses her desire to be pampered/praised/loved by a fictional man, she immediately gets written off as a dumb cringy person. ew you want this male character to love YOU instead of another male? embarrassing!! and this is considering how the west tried to hop on the yumejoshi train! who is the weirdo in this scenario??

I'm late as hell but oh my god the way yume is seen in western fandom… It truly irritates me how there are people out there talking about not sharing who they self-ship with and telling "doubles" to block them but then will consume content created by others. And the fact that so many encourage this behaviour by putting some people on a pedestal—basically garnering fanbases of their own—because of how much merch they showcase or how loud they are in the fandom. I swear half the time they aren't actual yumes either it's all about pairing their OCs with characters…

Actually, I'm going to go on another yume-related rant, but this time about JP yume stuff. I usually avoid any BL yume (BLD)—even though technically I should be going there as a man—because you can just tell most of it is from those who want to write MobxCharacter (°ー°〃) It's in the same manner as BLCD, where the "listener" will be voiceless but have an entire character description.

It's seriously so annoying how it's more acceptable to ship other characters—even if you have to create a whole new OC—than to self-insert properly. I can't lie, but I'm of the faction that dislikes when the MC is fully seen as a character with merch and excessive promo. It's hard enough fighting off shippers of LIs, but when other "fans" belittle you for self-inserting rather than loving to pair the MC with LIs. I recall a recent thing with Diabolik Lovers that had people throwing hands, www. All the people who insist on seeing themselves as the MC's mother guiding her… You do you but I'm self-inserting (ㆆ_ㆆ)

 

[ninnikuryona]

I'm late as hell but oh my god the way yume is seen in western fandom… It truly irritates me how there are people out there talking about not sharing who they self-ship with and telling "doubles" to block them but then will consume content created by others. And the fact that so many encourage this behaviour by putting some people on a pedestal—basically garnering fanbases of their own—because of how much merch they showcase or how loud they are in the fandom. I swear half the time they aren't actual yumes either it's all about pairing their OCs with characters…

oh i have SO many opinions on the so-called "yumeshipping" in western fandoms, and none of them are positive LMAO im sorry. i agree, to me personally even the concept of """doubles""" is (at the very least) very silly, because like.. this is not your character. this is a character created by someone else for the masses. of course theyre gonna have fans. but like, okay, if you claim a background character as your f/o (god i hate this name), i can kiiiiiinda understand being sensitive to "doubles" (still dont condone it sorry for being toxic). but if you are in love with gojo fucking satoru, do you expect there to be no "doubles" at all?????? huh????????
also yea, you never know if the character artist you worship so much ships themself with the same character. what are you gonna do then? are you stealing their f/o? is this a double ntr situation??

Actually, I'm going to go on another yume-related rant, but this time about JP yume stuff. I usually avoid any BL yume (BLD)—even though technically I should be going there as a man—because you can just tell most of it is from those who want to write MobxCharacter (°ー°〃) It's in the same manner as BLCD, where the "listener" will be voiceless but have an entire character description.

oh thats interesting! i know theres a certain subgenre of people who create entire ocs/sonas? just to ship them with canonical characters, and its kinda interesting too, because.. why not just label it as oc x canon? this is the definition of an oc after all.. also, if you claim to love the character so much, why would you even make up a completely different person to ship them with instead? is it self-projection/self-inserting? why not just, you know,, self-insert from the get-go? sorry if my ramblings are incoherent im just ww

It's seriously so annoying how it's more acceptable to ship other characters—even if you have to create a whole new OC—than to self-insert properly. I can't lie, but I'm of the faction that dislikes when the MC is fully seen as a character with merch and excessive promo. It's hard enough fighting off shippers of LIs, but when other "fans" belittle you for self-inserting rather than loving to pair the MC with LIs. I recall a recent thing with Diabolik Lovers that had people throwing hands, www. All the people who insist on seeing themselves as the MC's mother guiding her… You do you but I'm self-inserting (ㆆ_ㆆ)

oh i totally totally get you!!!!!! i may not be self-inserting that much (im like doing a side thing, where my fantasies do not interfere with the canon and stuff), but the way certain people genuinely seem to believe they are better than those "crazy yumejoshi" just because they treat the heroine as her own character is disgusting imo! theres no way you are gonna deny that the entire otome genre is built on self-inserting. i mean, even with dialovers specifically, it started off as a dramacd project, no? and who is the heroine in the dramacd? you! so, who is the expected heroine of the otome game based on said dramacd? also you! is it really that crazy of a concept i wonder..?
i mean, i also love my heroines dearly, i am their mother and their sister and their guardian angel, but i am also. them. is this concept really that wild?? why do you think there are so few voiced heroines in otome as a whole ? ? ? ?
(the dialovers situation is genuinely stupid though because how can you mess up so bad you just replace a generic "you" with a whole ass name and expect people to be okay with it? but seeing as the director of rejet is a man i cant be too surprised)

 

[orionsbestie]

All the people who insist on seeing themselves as the MC's mother guiding her… You do you but I'm self-inserting (ㆆ_ㆆ)

Preaaaach

I hard about the diabolik lovers thing... I did feel a little hurt as a long time fan ngl HAHA

 

[ninnikuryona]

I hard about the diabolik lovers thing... I did feel a little hurt as a long time fan ngl HAHA

at least they fixed it pretty quickly.. but like, why even do this in the first place..?;; is yui really that much of a waifu of someone in rejet??

 

[vitanchlo]

If its between side characters I don't mind but then again, its not common for this to occur in BLs, is it? So there might be a bit of a double standard especially among western fans. I've had to drop so many indie VNs because of this. I've said it already in another thread but just create a game for those two characters if you're going to involve a romantic plotline regarding any ROs. Most of the time when this happens its meant to cause derision towards the MC (disregarding gender as I've seen it also happen to MCs you can customize). I'm not too familiar with any discourse online about shipping so I can't speak on that.

 

[orionsbestie]

the way certain people genuinely seem to believe they are better than those "crazy yumejoshi" just because they treat the heroine as her own character is disgusting imo! theres no way you are gonna deny that the entire otome genre is built on self-inserting.

So real SO REAL!!!they're the same people who never miss a chance to claim every otome on earth as not for self-inserts because MC IS HER OWN PERSON! 1! 1! 1! AND IT'S SO MUCH BETTER TO HEAR THE VOICELINES SO YOU'RE WRONG AND CRAZY FOR CHANGING HER NAME!1! 1!!!
Sorry fam I just get very pissed off whenever the wall/3rd pov/guardian spirit type of player's passive aggressiveness comes up lol they most of the time come off as condescending and NLOG (even though they might not even be girls themselves)....

 

[nyao]

oh i have SO many opinions on the so-called "yumeshipping" in western fandoms, and none of them are positive LMAO im sorry. i agree, to me personally even the concept of """doubles""" is (at the very least) very silly, because like.. this is not your character. this is a character created by someone else for the masses. of course theyre gonna have fans. but like, okay, if you claim a background character as your f/o (god i hate this name), i can kiiiiiinda understand being sensitive to "doubles" (still dont condone it sorry for being toxic). but if you are in love with gojo fucking satoru, do you expect there to be no "doubles" at all?????? huh????????
also yea, you never know if the character artist you worship so much ships themself with the same character. what are you gonna do then? are you stealing their f/o? is this a double ntr situation??

Don't even be sorry because I don't have anything positive to say either, aside from occasionally coming across fics that have a reader that is trans. Now I'm probably more yandere than any of the characters I yume when it comes to what I'd do in fiction, but even then I'm not going to be foolish shouting for no one to like the same character (＠_＠;) The Gojo example made me wheeze, www. Yo, I think there actually was a case of some western game—not otome—having a character that one of the devs or something self-shipped with, and they patched it to make him married to that dev??? It was so crazy.

oh i totally totally get you!!!!!! i may not be self-inserting that much (im like doing a side thing, where my fantasies do not interfere with the canon and stuff), but the way certain people genuinely seem to believe they are better than those "crazy yumejoshi" just because they treat the heroine as her own character is disgusting imo! theres no way you are gonna deny that the entire otome genre is built on self-inserting.

Yup, it's always those same people saying we should let people enjoy things how they want until they believe the way you do is "cringe". Fighting for my life whenever there's some form of adaptation, and suddenly I'm a misogynist for not wanting to see all of the LI and MC content （︶^︶）

 

[ninnikuryona]

Sorry fam I just get very pissed off whenever the wall/3rd pov/guardian spirit type of player's passive aggressiveness comes up lol they most of the time come off as condescending and NLOG (even though they might not even be girls themselves)....

YES so much this!!!!! okay you dont selfinsert thats great! i also didnt selfinsert till like a year ago because i literally didnt know how to and what does it look like and how do you do it! (still cant say i get it completely but im learning lmao) but this condescension and silent accusations of being a weirdo are so.. the entire genre is fucking weird you are neither better nor worse for seeing the heroine as her own character hop off!!!!!!!!! we all read this stuff to see hot guys fall in love with OUR character after all!!!!!!!

 

[nyao]

So real SO REAL!!!they're the same people who never miss a chance to claim every otome on earth as not for self-inserts because MC IS HER OWN PERSON! 1! 1! 1! AND IT'S SO MUCH BETTER TO HEAR THE VOICELINES SO YOU'RE WRONG AND CRAZY FOR CHANGING HER NAME!1! 1!!!
Sorry fam I just get very pissed off whenever the wall/3rd pov/guardian spirit type of player's passive aggressiveness comes up lol they most of the time come off as condescending and NLOG (even though they might not even be girls themselves)....

I've used so many aliases I can assume the default names as mine, but this is while I'm playing. Otherwise, I don't want to see the MC's name plastered everywhere.

However, it's genuinely insane that so many advocate for voiced MC when that would be so costly and this genre is a niche as is… Then they compare it to BL games having voiced MC as if the reason for that isn't because those games do not serve the same purpose as otome (°ー°〃)

 

[ninnikuryona]

Yo, I think there actually was a case of some western game—not otome—having a character that one of the devs or something self-shipped with, and they patched it to make him married to that dev??? It was so crazy.

genuinely sounds so bad. selfshipping is awesome and you should feel free to engage in it however you see fit, BUT to go so far and literally write yourself into the script for no reason other that so no one could claim your beloved character is.. uh?;; maybe you should go back to scriptwriting school......

the selfshipping culture of the west is just extremely toxic in general. you cant selfship with loli/shota, you cant selfship with problematic characters (unless you remove every single trait that makes them the character), you cant proclaim your love for a character that is already claimed by someone else in the community, and peoples constant need to prove themselves and their love through.. expensive merch??? is not healthy at all..;;
but of course the worst part is that they all constantly enable each other. theres so much drama with "doubles" and whatnot, people falling for the most obvious bait, people feeling fucking SUICIDAL over seeing something that involves their f/o in a romantic situation with someone other than them! its crazy unhealthy. i used to be like that too, i was shipping myself with a character from a joseimuke media, and as we all know joseimuke media tends to attract fujoshi. and fujoshi tend to spawn fanart. and twitter algorithm fucking sucks. i vividly remember seeing a yaoi fanart featuring this character, and i felt so bad i literally like. had to lie down and just stare at the ceiling for 20 minutes. all while whining. yet somehow this behaviour is normalized these days ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? girls.... no...........

 

[nyao]

the selfshipping culture of the west is just extremely toxic in general. you cant selfship with loli/shota,

Ah… The sad life of a western shotacon… My friends tell me to do content creation, but if I need to hide 99% of my interests to avoid cancellation, what is the point?

i used to be like that too, i was shipping myself with a character from a joseimuke media, and as we all know joseimuke media tends to attract fujoshi. and fujoshi tend to spawn fanart. and twitter algorithm fucking sucks. i vividly remember seeing a yaoi fanart featuring this character, and i felt so bad i literally like. had to lie down and just stare at the ceiling for 20 minutes. all while whining. yet somehow this behaviour is normalized these days ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? girls.... no...........

Nah, you're so real for this because me too. It's even worse when I also did fanart in the past and would get hate for "not being a real man" and then be told the character ships are superior. My block list is too long to fathom. Ngl, I'll still be salty if it's fully untagged or deliberately in official tags because I tend to preemptively mute tags for ships involving characters I self-ship with.

The outward public hater in me might've died, but it does lie dormant for situations like this.

 

[ninnikuryona]

Ah… The sad life of a western shotacon… My friends tell me to do content creation, but if I need to hide 99% of my interests to avoid cancellation, what is the point?

true lmao! for non-loli/shota they usually use the "just age them up together with you" shit, which is funny because it comes dangerously close to the proshipping territory, which they fucking HATE lol. also the whole concept of "im turning 18 tomorrow but my f/o is 16 what do i do D:" being a genuine problem is a little funny from the outside perspective. just a little though

Nah, you're so real for this because me too. It's even worse when I also did fanart in the past and would get hate for "not being a real man" and then be told the character ships are superior. My block list is too long to fathom. Ngl, I'll still be salty if it's fully untagged or deliberately in official tags because I tend to preemptively mute tags for ships involving characters I self-ship with.

The outward public hater in me might've died, but it does lie dormant for situations like this.

wow this kind of harassment is disgusting:0 im sorry you had to go through that shit!;; its so weird though because i thought this territory is focused heavily on self-expression? why would you attack anyone for.. self-expressing....????? its like those people who tell others theres not enough this and that content to "do it yourself" but then get mad when people actually do it themselves... like huh??w
ALSO YES TRUE the mistagging is definitely malicious in A LOT of cases. this has been discussed in another thread i think but when people deliberately draw bl featuring CHARACTERS FROM OTOME and then PUT IT INTO OFFICIAL TAGS and then have the audacity to get upset when being told theyre in the wrong its so?? bad????? do people not know the basic fandom etiquette anymore or do they just not care????????