what's your ideal Otome Game ?

[White Toreador]

it's not even a fireworks/oh no leg twisted example that shows it; it's more the whole 'oh noes he yelled at me so for sure it's my fault'. Or even the 'oh noes he is abusive but I'll stick with him for NO REASON so he'll lov me'. If those 2 types of situations were completely erased from otomes, I'd be a happy person.

Another thing I'd gladly erase is a trope of the guys, actually. Right now almost every otome game has a tsundere, yandere, shota, 'megane', playboy setup. Some could say it's to 'account for every taste' but shoehorning characters into tropes makes them so flat -.-. I feel like we need more mixes of a few tropes for every character?

^ THIS

Yep, games influence people and portraying abusive behavior as normal one might be rather damaging for the audience. If developers and publishers don't wanna educate people on what's wrong and right, then really it's better to erase such situations entirely.

I think we'll see new types of characters when the next generation of developers will come. Hopefully, audience will be ready and perhaps even demand changes.

 

[Sakimichi]

^ THIS

Yep, games influence people and portraying abusive behavior as normal one might be rather damaging for the audience. If developers and publishers don't wanna educate people on what's wrong and right, then really it's better to erase such situations entirely.

I think we'll see new types of characters when the next generation of developers will come. Hopefully, audience will be ready and perhaps even demand changes.

I feel so ashamed of liking such 'abuse' in otome games, especially tsundere guys. After reading your posts i think I changed my mind and agree with this. IRL verbal abuse don't bode well in reality.

 

[White Toreador]

I feel so ashamed of liking such 'abuse' in otome games, especially tsundere guys. After reading your posts i think I changed my mind and agree with this. IRL verbal abuse don't bode well in reality.

Please, don't be ashamed :)
Couple years ago I wasn't aware myself that we, women, are often fed with wrong ideas in games. We're rarely motivated to stand up for ourselves, to walk away from people who treat us badly, to accept our bodies, wishes, and real personalities.
But we can change that together

 

[SilverAliisza]

I feel so ashamed of liking such 'abuse' in otome games, especially tsundere guys. After reading your posts i think I changed my mind and agree with this. IRL verbal abuse don't bode well in reality.

I don't think you should be ashamed of indulging in something; I actually like tsundere guys because they amuse me to an extent.
The problem is how widespread it is - if it was just a fantasy in a few games it'd probably be just a peculiarity, but it's so common in all otomes that it became the 'norm' and that's where I say STOP.

Please, don't be ashamed :)
Couple years ago I wasn't aware myself that we, women, are often fed with wrong ideas in games. We're rarely motivated to stand up for ourselves, to walk away from people who treat us badly, to accept our bodies, wishes, and real personalities.
But we can change that together

This is very true. Society is of course changing, but it would speed up the process if media didn't indulge in ridiculous stereotypes. Hollywood is the biggest sinner here, often indulging in 'weak female character is just motivation for male character' or 'female character in a movie is just there to be the romantic interest'. And. Nothing. Else.

 

[White Toreador]

This is very true. Society is of course changing, but it would speed up the process if media didn't indulge in ridiculous stereotypes. Hollywood is the biggest sinner here, often indulging in 'weak female character is just motivation for male character' or 'female character in a movie is just there to be the romantic interest'. And. Nothing. Else.

Also, we have business people who earn money on humans' insecurities and they avidly protect their positions. Diversity would decrease their revenue for sure.


Oops, totally forgot to add this:

Spoiler: Comic Strip

 

[SilverAliisza]

Also, we have business people who earn money on humans' insecurities and they avidly protect their positions. Diversity would decrease their revenue for sure.


Oops, totally forgot to add this:

Spoiler: Comic Strip

OH my I remember that critical miss comic and my gods is it true. XD
There was also that one with 'perfect human' breeding following bishie proportions and the effect was like yaoi hands tiny head huge torso thing XD Pretty scary and way too close to truth at the same time.

And yes, repeating old stereotypes that work is an easy way to make a buck.

Random thought to the topic: I'd love an otome game where the heroine can choose her own attitude, not be shoehorned into some role/stereotype. So if you pick spunky options you're spunky, if you pick meek options you're meek.

 

[White Toreador]

Yay, happy to meet a fellow escapist

Random thought to the topic: I'd love an otome game where the heroine can choose her own attitude, not be shoehorned into some role/stereotype. So if you pick spunky options you're spunky, if you pick meek options you're meek.

Hmm, like human/ayakashi routes in 'Ayakashi Gohan'?

 

[310hajime]

Also, we have business people who earn money on humans' insecurities and they avidly protect their positions. Diversity would decrease their revenue for sure.


Oops, totally forgot to add this:

Spoiler: Comic Strip

lol that comic. although I must say it is happening right now. In eroge at least ಠ_ಠ yes u can date kawaii Hitler-chan

I think anyone shouldn't be ashamed for liking any sort of kink in fiction. Hey I like tsunderes too but if a person acts violently tsundere IRL I'd punch them tbh (#ﾟДﾟ) (there's a big difference in a blushing tsun chara vs tsun but hits you in the face)

Fiction is not reality and as long as u acknowledge bad things as bad, that's okay.

 

[White Toreador]

lol that comic. although I must say it is happening right now. In eroge at least ಠ_ಠ yes u can date kawaii Hitler-chan

Yeah, Japan is still in denial of its role in WWII and romanticizes Nazism without hesitation

Fiction is not reality and as long as u acknowledge bad things as bad, that's okay.

Couldn't agree more :)

 

[SilverAliisza]

Yay, happy to meet a fellow escapist



Hmm, like human/ayakashi routes in 'Ayakashi Gohan'?

^^ likewise, happy to see escapist-goers here

and I haven't actually played Ayakashi Gohan yet, I'm going to give it a go next week maybe. For now I was trying to finish all TinyxMachinegun paths XD
but if they have that then I'm looking forward to it!

 

[Taah]

A visual novel with many drama and death! Gore, gore, gore! Something like Black Wolves Saga, but with a strong female lead!

 

[firelily]

Here goes my lengthy list!
1) A sensible main character with some skill or talent.
--I can't stand it when the girl is like "No! Take me to battle! (Even if I can't fight and I'll probably be captured and you'd get injured trying to help me,) take me with you!" -- like, seriously?! -__-;
2) I like to have some sort of gaming aspect other than reading the text.
3) A good scenario (doesn't matter how bloody, depressing, or happy it is, I value depth.)
4) Equal treatment of characters. Not everyone needs to be vital to the main plot, but every character deserves at least the same number of CGs and events.
5) No physical and/or emotional harming of the main character, I can tolerate it in R18 because I prepare for the worst, but other times I hate being caught off guard. (I'm looking at you, Toma.)
6) Characters who use their brains, not force to get the love interest.
7) Characters who have a strong sense of who they are. I like couples to compliment each other, not depend on each other for life.


Is this too much to ask?!?

 

[SilverAliisza]

Here goes my lengthy list!
1) A sensible main character with some skill or talent.
--I can't stand it when the girl is like "No! Take me to battle! (Even if I can't fight and I'll probably be captured and you'd get injured trying to help me,) take me with you!" -- like, seriously?! -__-;
2) I like to have some sort of gaming aspect other than reading the text.
3) A good scenario (doesn't matter how bloody, depressing, or happy it is, I value depth.)
4) Equal treatment of characters. Not everyone needs to be vital to the main plot, but every character deserves at least the same number of CGs and events.
5) No physical and/or emotional harming of the main character, I can tolerate it in R18 because I prepare for the worst, but other times I hate being caught off guard. (I'm looking at you, Toma.)
6) Characters who use their brains, not force to get the love interest.
7) Characters who have a strong sense of who they are. I like couples to compliment each other, not depend on each other for life.


Is this too much to ask?!?

I agree with a couple of points you made, strong hero/heroine with some talent and self-value would be great;

- I played a few otome games that have a 'gaming' part and they all were an unwelcome distraction from the story, I never saw any minigmae in otome games that would be a good idea (the Amnesia World is the biggest offender, those were just the WORST part of that already weak game). I'm all good with visual novels being visual novels. The only 'game aspect' of a largely visual novel game that I actually liked was Dangan Ronpa exploration and trials.

- The 'no physical and emotional harming' in non-R18 games is a bit of a misunderstanding on how the rating system works, IMO. R18 only means there will be explicit sex, but there are otome games rated Cero D, which are suitable for 'ages above 16' (or 17 and up) which will include serious stuff and Cero C, which includes some shifty situations (Like Toma in amnesia; seriously though rather than Toma its Ukyo that scared me to hell and back). Cero D and C games have a rating of 17 and above and 15 and above for a reason, usually. So it's not 'out of the blue'. R18 / Cero Z only means sex, doesn't mean 'worst' (though I'd love to play a R18 game without rape that's for sure).

 

[White Toreador]

- I played a few otome games that have a 'gaming' part and they all were an unwelcome distraction from the story, I never saw any minigmae in otome games that would be a good idea (the Amnesia World is the biggest offender, those were just the WORST part of that already weak game). I'm all good with visual novels being visual novels. The only 'game aspect' of a largely visual novel game that I actually liked was Dangan Ronpa exploration and trials.

How about "Bakudan Handan" mini-games? They were a part of storyline: to survive characters needed to solve puzzles that were presented by the main villain.

 

[firelily]

- I played a few otome games that have a 'gaming' part and they all were an unwelcome distraction from the story, I never saw any minigmae in otome games that would be a good idea (the Amnesia World is the biggest offender, those were just the WORST part of that already weak game). I'm all good with visual novels being visual novels. The only 'game aspect' of a largely visual novel game that I actually liked was Dangan Ronpa exploration and trials.

--I haven't played much games with mini games, but the "gaming" I was thinking of was the fighting in Haruka naru Toki no Nakade, the musical training in La Corda, and raising the stats for TMGS. I liked them because it helps visualize the main character's growth. It also compliments the scenario and the interaction with other characters. Sadly, not a lot of otome games nowadays are geared towards the intensive gaming found in Angelique and Corda which I miss so much.

 

[SilverAliisza]

How about "Bakudan Handan" mini-games? They were a part of storyline: to survive characters needed to solve puzzles that were presented by the main villain.

Sweet Fuse, right? I seriously don't even recall the minigames there, I was using a walk through all the way (*cheater*).

--I haven't played much games with mini games, but the "gaming" I was thinking of was the fighting in Haruka naru Toki no Nakade, the musical training in La Corda, and raising the stats for TMGS. I liked them because it helps visualize the main character's growth. It also compliments the scenario and the interaction with other characters. Sadly, not a lot of otome games nowadays are geared towards the intensive gaming found in Angelique and Corda which I miss so much.

La Corda (if it's the one about the violin player?) I do recall as being a bit repetitive tho.


To explain, maybe, why I dislike stats, I'll use one of my favourite games: For all my love for Glass Heart Princess, my first trek through it reminded me of handling a stack of loosely put together wineglasses or a pack of rabid dogs ready to chew my face off for a single mistake. But once I figured it out, it became a routine 'pick what you do' thing which has absolutely nothing to offer beyond failure states for certain necessary scenes (even if you pick the 'correct' reply, if your Heart isn't 'strong' enough you'll end up with Broken Heart for that scene, so it's just a false failure state). I call those things 'mini-games' but they aren't, really, because they are vital to progress of the game. But they are just obtuse obstacles. It's like the timed reply in Karin games. It doesn't bring anything other than frustration at wrongly picked reply. XD I feel like forcing 'gamingy' elements into visual novels does nothing or relatively little.
Maybe it has to do with me liking Visual Novels for what they are - glorified picture story books with interaction, but I really do not see the merit in inserting gameplay into a largely narrative driven storybook-game.

 

[White Toreador]

Sweet Fuse, right? I seriously don't even recall the minigames there, I was using a walk through all the way (*cheater*).

Yep, totally right :)
"Explosive Insights" are the mini-games that I've been talking about.

I call those things 'mini-games' but they aren't, really, because they are vital to progress of the game.

According to game design, mini-games can be vital to progress. Not always, of course, but in adventure games, for example, we cannot continue to read a story if we haven't solved a logic puzzle, collected all needed items, picked up a lock, etc. Such activities would be considered as mini-games.

 

[SilverAliisza]

According to game design, mini-games can be vital to progress. Not always, of course, but in adventure games, for example, we cannot continue to read a story if we haven't solved a logic puzzle, collected all needed items, picked up a lock, etc. Such activities would be considered as mini-games.

Sounds legit. I was trying to differentiate between the pointless minigames in Amnesia World that were the tacked on things you could do beside the game from the puzzles within the story you needed to complete.

 

[Mizuno]

In short, minigames are okay as long as they're useful for the story itself, and not just there to keep the player busy xD
... Am I right in saying it like that ?

 

[SilverAliisza]

In short, minigames are okay as long as they're useful for the story itself, and not just there to keep the player busy xD
... Am I right in saying it like that ?

pretty much this ^ minigames that aren't bloody busywork are just fine

 

[White Toreador]

Sounds legit. I was trying to differentiate between the pointless minigames in Amnesia World that were the tacked on things you could do beside the game from the puzzles within the story you needed to complete.

Technically, both of them are "mini-games". I'm sorry :)
"Amnesia World" mini-games add variety and they're an actual part of the whole game whether we like it or not.

In short, minigames are okay as long as they're useful for the story itself, and not just there to keep the player busy xD
... Am I right in saying it like that ?

Ahem, in "The Witcher" series and "Assassin's Creed 4" gambling mini-games served no purpose for the story itself, but they gave additional challenge, rewarded players with money, and changed the game pace without need to leave the game completely.

What's wrong with keeping a player busy ? We make a choice - it keeps us busy, we fight an enemy - it keeps us busy, we collect an armour set - it keeps us busy. Everything from a game's start to its end is made to keep players busy, otherwise you start a game, get an ending, and you're free to go. I bet that sounds not like an ideal game of any genre :D

 

[SilverAliisza]

Technically, both of them are "mini-games". I'm sorry :)
"Amnesia World" mini-games add variety and they're an actual part of the whole game whether we like it or not.

OH I hate it, trust me.

We are starting to swim away from the topic though, which was why Minigames in some VNs are tedious busywork, minigames in games like The Witcher (I happen to love the dice poker) and AssCreed 4 (it was a tidbit tedious but I tried it) or hell even platformers (chest chasing in Rayman etc) are part of a different game. Minigames there are part of the world immersion or just to break up repetitive platforming/reward skill/serve as additional challenge. Let's not mix up those two things please. Raising stats in GHP is pointless busywork, poker in The Witcher was a fun diversion.

 

[White Toreador]

We are starting to swim away from the topic though, which was why Minigames in some VNs are tedious busywork, minigames in games like The Witcher (I happen to love the dice poker) and AssCreed 4 (it was a tidbit tedious but I tried it) or hell even platformers (chest chasing in Rayman etc) are part of a different game. Minigames there are part of the world immersion or just to break up repetitive platforming/reward skill/serve as additional challenge. Let's not mix up those two things please. Raising stats in GHP is pointless busywork, poker in The Witcher was a fun diversion.

I named a couple of examples to illustrate when mini-games can be unrelated to a story and keep players busy but still be good.
And if I remember correctly, the original topic was about gaming aspects in VNs in general, not just examples of poorly designed mini-games :P

 

[Mizuno]

@ Shiiromay
Uh, well, I just wanted to say that minigames aren't the main plot of a vn... it's a visual NOVEL. So you read. Minigames are usually bonus or something to make it more interactive.
... Actually, I'm just starting to realize that I'm viewing vns and, well, "Games" as two different things. It must be why you are reacting this way, Shiiromay. Personally, vns aren't really "played" but more read. That's why it doesn't bother me to find minigames in games like in those you talked about.
And when I said "keep busy", I meant "make us stray from the story". Something like that. ^^'

 

[White Toreador]

@Mizuno

You see, when someone discusses what games are, what genres should or should not contain - they leave the field of just personal opinions and enter the field of game development.
So just in case, I'm not arguing here with anyone's opinion. I share some factual information on game design and it's up to you whether to use it or not.

... Actually, I'm just starting to realize that I'm viewing vns and, well, "Games" as two different things. It must be why you are reacting this way, Shiiromay. Personally, vns aren't really "played" but more read.

If we emphasize solely on reading, then we'll miss rules of play and a victory condition in visual novels.

1. Visual novels contain at least one objective - to find out the story and reach its ending.
2. Visual novels give us choices (where to go, how to respond, etc.) which influence the game's outcome.
3. Visual novels have the winning/losing conditions: we reached a good ending - we won a game, we reached a bad ending - we lost.

Uh, well, I just wanted to say that minigames aren't the main plot of a vn... it's a visual NOVEL. So you read. Minigames are usually bonus or something to make it more interactive.

Err.., we were talking about otome games aka datesims, not visual novels only.

1. The main objective of a datesim is to capture a guy/a gal of our choice and reach their good/best ending.
2. To do that we need to make choices that they approve or raise the stats that they deeply care about.
3. If we gained enough "love points" - we got the best or good endings, if we didn't - we got the normal or bad endings.

One of the possible ways to gain the "love points" is through mini-games, so they can have more important role than just being a bonus. After beating a mini-game we're getting closer to a victory.