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What do you think about BL elements appearing in otome works?

I haven't come across a game with this kind of element yet, and maybe I'm just a bit slow to notice. If it's not the main character that can be romanced who is in this situation, I think it's okay? If I personally experienced it, I might have a different opinion. But it's probably best if the story still revolves around myself, which seems more reasonable.
 
I don't mind it too much if it's between side characters, but BL with LIs kinda get on my nerves (even though I'm a huge BL fan as well!) I also don't really care for fujoshi in fandom as long as it's tagged properly, but I'm not on twt so maybe I'm not as jaded as the otoge fans over there lol I was blocking so many people I just gave up (I'm kinda getting to the point where I block anyone who doesn't post otoge/shoujo/BL content in Japanese... English-only fans have traumatized me)

It just feels lazy. Companies/circles notice they have both fujoshi and otoge audiences, and instead of making different works specifically for them, they just try pandering to both at once. You end up with a game that's a poorly done otoge, and a poorly done BL. It also messes up tagging and searching, and gets harder to navigate what games you want to play. If I'm searching for BxB and the game is like 50% otoge (or the opposite) it's very frustrating. And I'm not even a self-inserter! I can just imagine how troublesome it gets for otoge-only fans and self-inserters when the one genre that's supposed to welcome you starts to judge them like that :(

It's always like that, companies start merging all female-targeted stuff under the same term, then female-targeted starts pandering to male audiences, and when you least expect it, all works get slowly replaced with male audience stuff...

Edit: That reminds of something that, although it's not at all otome game related, kinda shows how it ends up: Persona 3 Portable had a female MC, yet they ditched it in the subsequent games... for scraps of BxB fanservice. Despite the fact that P2 Innocent Sin had BxB content, and fans loving Kotone in P3P. Nowadays P5 just launches fujobait merch for the female fandom, since it's easier to not write any content for women at all and let the fujoshi fandom work with the crumbs they left in game, so they can pander to male audience only
 
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I hate it — it even makes me feel sick. Why would an otome game include BL elements?
Slightly off-topic, but there was a doujin circle on DLsite called がるまにオリジナル (乙女) that added male-male contact in one of their audio works. It made me feel completely disgusted. A work aimed at a female audience — and they put BL in it. If they really want to write BL, they should start a new series, not turn characters with a normal orientation into having guy-on-guy contact in a sequel. That's just a betrayal of the listeners.
Because of that garuma sh*t, even i can't bear myself to listen the voice of the seiyuu that they used for that controversial tag even in outside garuma works 😔
That was so serious for me. This is why the genre is separated for a reason.
 
If there are warning tags, it's okay I think, but it wouldn't belong to just otome genre anymore. I can't think of examples other than the recent otome cd work, though.
 
not calling into question arguments bringing up the genre potentially being diluted or some greedy company not fully wanting to commit to being bl or otome in hopes to earn support of both and risking leaving both parties unhappy but i would advise against saying things like 'normal orientation' ... might be a word choice lgbt people will not appreciate very much
 
I'd like to preface this by saying I'm a gay guy and a fudanshi so by definition I'm NOT the target audience for otome games and fully recognize that, I'm just here for the fun ride and being a wingman to my girls while thinking "whoa she's getting such a handsome boyfriend, luckyyy" for the most part. My opinions here aren't meant to be taken as "this is how the genre should be" since as far as I'm positioned I'm like a tourist visiting another place and saying hi while learning the local culture.

While I can admit that I personally wouldn't be bothered by BL bait in an otoge in the moment, I do think that it feels kind of cheap, especially when taking a step back and thinking more about it. I wouldn't really care if it involves side characters who aren't romantically involved with the main cast—gay people exist and it's nice having some mentions here and there that we exist lmao—but it would defeat the purpose of an otome game if it involves the LIs.

On one hand, it muddies the waters when it comes to genre delimitations, and god knows those are already a swamp when you take into account the fact that western fandom people especially can't tell a damn difference between otome games and joseimuke games lmfao. But at the same time, it feels kind of disappointing and like a slap to the face if you go in having clear expectations because of the genre tag.

When I play a BL game, I don't expect to be flashbanged by a hetero sex scene. Maybe mentions of a LI having a previous relationship with a woman, since a common trope in BL is the "straight guy who's gay only for one guy," (because clearly bisexuals are strange mythical creatures) trope, but if I get baja blasted by Mister Dude balls deep into a woman (forgive my crass language) then uh... no. Not what I signed up for! I'd at least appreciate a warning about there being bisexual action so I can get prepared.

So I understand people's frustration on this thread since, from what I gathered, it's kind of a similar experience but flipped.

If I play an otome game, I'm signing up for romance between a man and a woman. Even if I already mentioned I wouldn't mind some BL bait in the moment, in the long run it'd feel awkward to have the main action be interrupted by, say, the LIs flirting with each other constantly or male side characters having their moment with the LIs like "I love him what should I do" like homie needs the MC to sit in the audience or something while he tries his shot with the LI you're gunning for. It stings from a player's perspective, and also because you know that subplot is meant to go moot because the point of an otome game is the boy/girl romance anyway.

Plus, I think it'd bother me if writers took so much time developing the relationships between the men in their cast to the point where the MC is just mostly an afterthought.

Kind of reminds me of how some shounen mangaka are so misogynistic they happen to write better BL bait than they write compelling relationships between men and women [insert reheated Light Yagami or Narusasu joke here]. Very funny to see in the moment, but also feels utterly miserable when you stop for a sec and realize why things are like that.

As for the topic of fujos themselves... eh. I have my own opinions. I kind of dislike the idea brought up here that they "invade" spaces, but if you think about the loud minority then it can come across that way, yeah. Lots of self-proclaimed fujos out there farting higher than their own butts because they're into gay men doing it, and lots of people who claim to care about gay people & act all high and mighty about Genres of Gay Media, but who actually don't care about supporting gay media because they're too obsessed thinking about their mid shounen ships getting it on. "I love to be baited by shounen manga and losing at chess to a dog but I would NEVER buy a Yucky BL manga! Geicomi? Never heard of that!" type of shit, in my experience.

I think it's funny that Blue Lock was mentioned here btw because I've witnessed both the above phenomenon and an interesting phenomenon where you have people who say they LOVE women and yuri, but when you look at their account the only yuri-related thing they talk about is nyota yuri of blue lock ships. Like man, that manga's fanbase truly is poser central, huh? But that's besides the point of the thread.

Sorry this was super long but this is a very interesting thread to me so I had to yap for a bit.
 
I think it's funny that Blue Lock was mentioned here btw because I've witnessed both the above phenomenon and an interesting phenomenon where you have people who say they LOVE women and yuri, but when you look at their account the only yuri-related thing they talk about is nyota yuri of blue lock ships. Like man, that manga's fanbase truly is poser central, huh? But that's besides the point of the thread.
oh this is a MASSIVE problem in the modern anime community. not only they dont read manga (people still dont know what shoujo is and call rent-a-girlfriend a shoujo manga), but also those who claim they love yuri and yaoi equally never ever tweet about yuri. as a genre. ever. and when you question them about it, they start spewing the most outdated shit ever like "erm all yuri manga is malegaze written by men for men!!" when it hasnt been the case for like.. the past 15 years? its easier than ever to find a yuri manga written by a woman these days. and if anything, those "malegaze" manga are also very often written/drawn by women! so what the hell are they even talking about? literally anything but reading actual yuri LOL

also, loud minority is not a minority anymore when they actively ruin things. virche was ruined, grmn and dlsite as a whole (+ lovecul) was ruined, utapri was so ruined people have to put trigger warnings on artworks that feature haruka
 
oh this is a MASSIVE problem in the modern anime community. not only they dont read manga (people still dont know what shoujo is and call rent-a-girlfriend a shoujo manga), but also those who claim they love yuri and yaoi equally never ever tweet about yuri. as a genre. ever. and when you question them about it, they start spewing the most outdated shit ever like "erm all yuri manga is malegaze written by men for men!!" when it hasnt been the case for like.. the past 15 years? its easier than ever to find a yuri manga written by a woman these days. and if anything, those "malegaze" manga are also very often written/drawn by women! so what the hell are they even talking about? literally anything but reading actual yuri LOL

also, loud minority is not a minority anymore when they actively ruin things. virche was ruined, grmn and dlsite as a whole (+ lovecul) was ruined, utapri was so ruined people have to put trigger warnings on artworks that feature haruka
That argument about yuri kind of reminds me of how some people's view of BL is still "it's all noncon written by women who fetishize gay men there :/" like... sorry you just haven't looked for stuff that doesn't have that then, what can I tell you LMAOOO but yeah I can definitely feel a sort of disdain from the modern anime community for anything that actually requires research. Lots of smarmy people out there thinking they're an authority on entire genres of media after watching a single episode of Jujutsu Kaisen.

I admit I'm not too privy about the specifics of what happened with Virche or grmn & dlsite since I haven't played Virche yet and I'm very much still a newbie when it comes to the dlsite side of things, but the Utapri shit is surreal, what the hell!? Trigger warnings for artwork featuring the protag??? This is ridiculous 😭
 
Keep the floors separate. I don't mind if there is like gay side characters or what not. But otome should definitely be kept to otomexML otherwise it's not even the same genre anymore. I have no interest or attraction to seeing two guys together. ^^;
 
"erm all yuri manga is malegaze written by men for men!!" when it hasnt been the case for like.. the past 15 years? its easier than ever to find a yuri manga written by a woman these days. and if anything, those "malegaze" manga are also very often written/drawn by women! so what the hell are they even talking about? literally anything but reading actual yuri LOL
That argument about yuri kind of reminds me of how some people's view of BL is still "it's all noncon written by women who fetishize gay men there :/" like... sorry you just haven't looked for stuff that doesn't have that then, what can I tell you LMAOOO but yeah I can definitely feel a sort of disdain from the modern anime community for anything that actually requires research.
Just chiming in to say the kinda people that say all BL fetishizes gay men and that all yuri is for male gaze are very likely the same groups lmao and may very well be the ones who harass developers when a game has female MC only

It's one of the reasons I gave up on twt, they treat any work with mature or adult content as "fetish" content simply because it has mature content (and don't even get me started on how they attack BL because it's "made for women", but wouldn't be caught dead reading actual geicomi). Bit off-topic, but it's the reason I got a bit salty with the popular KiniOto/"green yuri", it has barely any explicitly GxG moments (for the majority of the work) yet it's this super popular palatable yuri. As a fellow bisexual woman (ha) I kinda want to see more romantic content between the girls in my yuri lol

It's usually from the crowds that get all their "BL" from shounen ships, which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't attack everyone who doesn't share their opinions. It's dire out there!
 
but it's the reason I got a bit salty with the popular KiniOto/"green yuri", it has barely any explicitly GxG moments (for the majority of the work) yet it's this super popular palatable yuri. As a fellow bisexual woman (ha) I kinda want to see more romantic content between the girls in my yuri lol
wait for real? i havent read it yet (im extremely lazy and scared of new things and i prefer to reread my favourite manga instead, shoutout to yuzuki ryouta and onesho), but if its a "light" yuri, as in not explicit, i wonder why did it become so popular with the yuri (or pseudo yuri) crowd? is it because they think that "deep"(?) yuri is fetish content as well? or is it another case of "fantasizing about yuri instead of actually reading it"? interesting..

i sooo agree with you though, i feel like there are some yuri manga that dont even get proper kiss scenes at times!! and im not saying that you HAVE to kiss or do lewd things to be considered in love, but how is it different from any cgdct stuff? a bit problematic/controversial, but this is why im so hesitant on calling wataten yuri. like yes i understand that having an oneeloli kiss in a manga might be weird even by mangaka standards, but it was published in yurihime!!!!! the least you could do is like,, a couple of cheek smooches?? at least?? between the younger girs if you are hesitant to use the adult protagonist for it??;-;
and im not saying wataten is bad! its enjoyable. as a cgdct manga. as a yuri manga though? not really xd i swear manga time kirara is not a yuri magazine yet they had a manga thats somehow more yuri than yurihime's wataten (chimidoro ice cream btw)
 
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I wish they wouldn't mix BL elements into works aimed at otome works. We respect others, so we want to be respected in return.
The whole point of genre classifications is to avoid trouble.
 
wait for real? i havent read it yet (im extremely lazy and scared of new things and i prefer to reread my favourite manga instead, shoutout to yuzuki ryouta and onesho), but if its a "light" yuri, as in not explicit, i wonder why did it become so popular with the yuri (or pseudo yuri) crowd? is it because they think that "deep"(?) yuri is fetish content as well? or is it another case of "fantasizing about yuri instead of actually reading it"? interesting..
Now it's a bit of a spoiler but they only kiss in like chapter 116 I believe? And you can barely see it lmao it's getting more romantic in newer chapters/college arc though, they're in an actual relationship now. Probably popular because it's very palatable stuff :'). Yeah I think the genre should at least have SOME romantic interaction or both characters in a relationship to be actual yuri, else it's just CGDCT!! (I'd love to chat more about it so if you're up for it feel free to message me sometime lol!)
 
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Now it's a bit of a spoiler but they only kiss in like chapter 116 I believe? And you can barely see it lmao it's getting more romantic in newer chapters/college arc though, they're in an actual relationship now. Probably popular because it's very palatable stuff :'). Yeah I think the genre should at least have SOME romantic interaction or both characters in a relationship to be actual yuri, else it's just CGDCT!! (I'd love to chat more about it so if you're up for it feel free to message me sometime lol!)
WAIT SERIOUSLY?????? ill admit im VERY VERY BAD with slowburns, which is why tamon-kun is immovable object for me LOL, so thank you for letting me know!! i wonder if its less noticeable if chapters themselves are on the shorter side? though keeping a good balance between a short chapter and a proper romantic development is kinda hard too..xdd
(and thank you for your kind suggestion!<3 im a bit people-fearing and i might go silent for like a week in the middle of a conversation though, so im not sure if im a good conversation partner ww;m; im always down to gush over some yuri stuff though!!!!!!!!!)
 
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I'd like to preface this by saying I'm a gay guy and a fudanshi so by definition I'm NOT the target audience for otome games and fully recognize that, I'm just here for the fun ride and being a wingman to my girls while thinking "whoa she's getting such a handsome boyfriend, luckyyy" for the most part. My opinions here aren't meant to be taken as "this is how the genre should be" since as far as I'm positioned I'm like a tourist visiting another place and saying hi while learning the local culture.

While I can admit that I personally wouldn't be bothered by BL bait in an otoge in the moment, I do think that it feels kind of cheap, especially when taking a step back and thinking more about it. I wouldn't really care if it involves side characters who aren't romantically involved with the main cast—gay people exist and it's nice having some mentions here and there that we exist lmao—but it would defeat the purpose of an otome game if it involves the LIs.

On one hand, it muddies the waters when it comes to genre delimitations, and god knows those are already a swamp when you take into account the fact that western fandom people especially can't tell a damn difference between otome games and joseimuke games lmfao. But at the same time, it feels kind of disappointing and like a slap to the face if you go in having clear expectations because of the genre tag.

When I play a BL game, I don't expect to be flashbanged by a hetero sex scene. Maybe mentions of a LI having a previous relationship with a woman, since a common trope in BL is the "straight guy who's gay only for one guy," (because clearly bisexuals are strange mythical creatures) trope, but if I get baja blasted by Mister Dude balls deep into a woman (forgive my crass language) then uh... no. Not what I signed up for! I'd at least appreciate a warning about there being bisexual action so I can get prepared.

So I understand people's frustration on this thread since, from what I gathered, it's kind of a similar experience but flipped.

If I play an otome game, I'm signing up for romance between a man and a woman. Even if I already mentioned I wouldn't mind some BL bait in the moment, in the long run it'd feel awkward to have the main action be interrupted by, say, the LIs flirting with each other constantly or male side characters having their moment with the LIs like "I love him what should I do" like homie needs the MC to sit in the audience or something while he tries his shot with the LI you're gunning for. It stings from a player's perspective, and also because you know that subplot is meant to go moot because the point of an otome game is the boy/girl romance anyway.

Plus, I think it'd bother me if writers took so much time developing the relationships between the men in their cast to the point where the MC is just mostly an afterthought.

Kind of reminds me of how some shounen mangaka are so misogynistic they happen to write better BL bait than they write compelling relationships between men and women [insert reheated Light Yagami or Narusasu joke here]. Very funny to see in the moment, but also feels utterly miserable when you stop for a sec and realize why things are like that.

As for the topic of fujos themselves... eh. I have my own opinions. I kind of dislike the idea brought up here that they "invade" spaces, but if you think about the loud minority then it can come across that way, yeah. Lots of self-proclaimed fujos out there farting higher than their own butts because they're into gay men doing it, and lots of people who claim to care about gay people & act all high and mighty about Genres of Gay Media, but who actually don't care about supporting gay media because they're too obsessed thinking about their mid shounen ships getting it on. "I love to be baited by shounen manga and losing at chess to a dog but I would NEVER buy a Yucky BL manga! Geicomi? Never heard of that!" type of shit, in my experience.

I think it's funny that Blue Lock was mentioned here btw because I've witnessed both the above phenomenon and an interesting phenomenon where you have people who say they LOVE women and yuri, but when you look at their account the only yuri-related thing they talk about is nyota yuri of blue lock ships. Like man, that manga's fanbase truly is poser central, huh? But that's besides the point of the thread.

Sorry this was super long but this is a very interesting thread to me so I had to yap for a bit.
You're absolutely right, it's clear someone here knows about the anime. I don't mind the otome-BL stuff at all; I'm interested in downloading the R18 dramas again. I stopped downloading them a long time ago xD :grin:
I'm going to read some damn R18 doujinshi from Blue Lock now :devilish:

Edit
But we sell more even if it hurts you.. All you have is lads, nothing else :unsure: Tell me if there's another otome hit now... :eek::o_O:

If I'm a misogynist then because I don't want to see big boobs and lesbians 🤮 like all in this thread and laugh all you want, I never like fucking otome games really xD

(-_-)
 
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You're absolutely right, it's clear someone here knows about the anime. I don't mind the otome-BL stuff at all; I'm interested in downloading the R18 dramas again. I stopped downloading them a long time ago xD :grin:
I'm going to read some damn R18 doujinshi from Blue Lock now :devilish:

funniest notif ever
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Don't really care about it if it's just between secondary characters, but it's a no to it being between LIs. Certain people on social media pretty much killed my interest in there being BL in otome games lol
And I don't like it when the MC gets ignored or erased just to cater to fujos or the general audience either, it certainly reeks of a certain something.

r/otomegames is a cesspool. they allow opinions that support bl headcanons, but they immediately shut off any discussion on how bl shippers should stay away from otome?
if you think r/otomegames is bad, just look at the gachahusbandos and other related subreddits. they treat fictional women and the otome genre and its players terribly lol
 
if you think r/otomegames is bad, just look at the gachahusbandos and other related subreddits. they treat fictional women and the otome genre and its players terribly lol
oh i remember this shit LMAO they never acknowledge lads' success and the only times they post fanart is when its yaoi to spite those evil nasty straights. fuck them WW
 
These people come off lowkey as keyboard warriors who equate fandom with activism ngl
this is 10000% true! they always bring up gay men and queer people in general when arguing for bl inclusion in otome when all they wanna do is see men fuck without any concern towards actual gays. i mean there are gay men who say fujoshi make them uncomfortable after all ww
huge issue in hoyofd as well. the day people realize that shipping isnt activism is the day we will have world peace
 
I can't accept it like really- you already have a space for your bl yourself? Why'd you invade others spaces? This also goes otherwise.

I absolutely hate it, women made their own spaces and somehow you want to make it about men? Hell nahh. The problem is not about 'homophobia' it's about staying on your own line.
 
this is 10000% true! they always bring up gay men and queer people in general when arguing for bl inclusion in otome when all they wanna do is see men fuck without any concern towards actual gays. i mean there are gay men who say fujoshi make them uncomfortable after all ww
huge issue in hoyofd as well. the day people realize that shipping isnt activism is the day we will have world peace
Literally a gay man but I play otome games because I hate how it's so normalised for everyone to be hooking up in mainstream BL games and how the MC is always voiced… It's crazy the way it's easier for me to self-insert as the MC of an otome than one of a BL game because those MCs are fully fleshed-out characters.

The reason is actually deeper for me, but I just despise seeing BL in any form of otome media these days. I used to not care if people created BL derivative works but now it's spread everywhere and so many people deliberately avoid tagging or even use official tags so it will appear anyway (ㆆ_ㆆ)
 
Literally a gay man but I play otome games because I hate how it's so normalised for everyone to be hooking up in mainstream BL games and how the MC is always voiced… It's crazy the way it's easier for me to self-insert as the MC of an otome than one of a BL game because those MCs are fully fleshed-out characters.
aw;w; yeah people (especially those outside of otome bubble) can bash otome heroines all they want, but the fact of the matter is that this is still a genre that encourages selfshipping/selfinserting. unlike typical blge, which are aimed at female audience and therefore dont require selfinserting, which makes voiced mcs way more present! (because whats better than one moaning guy? two moaning guys!)
The reason is actually deeper for me, but I just despise seeing BL in any form of otome media these days. I used to not care if people created BL derivative works but now it's spread everywhere and so many people deliberately avoid tagging or even use official tags so it will appear anyway (ㆆ_ㆆ)
YUP same same! i used to just brush it off like eh whatever, its just one situation/user/whatever, but with lads' boom and with grmn fiasco (+ utapri whole situation which is its own can of worms), it became EXTREMELY CLEAR that certain boundaries must be kept between the genres. like, ship whatever you want, but at least dont put it in the official tags??????? it reminds me of when i was looking through someone's femgaze hentai art and then i got flashbanged by lads yaoi. with exactly zero warnings?? basic respect hello? would you be okay with someone posting some bara fanart and in the middle of the post theres a pic where this guy fucks a woman?? surely not??????

i already got my fair share of homophobia accusations over my opinions, but isnt this the norm? as i said, shipping isnt activism and no one should be crucified for shipping whatever they want IF they do it in private, right? as long as you dont literally shove it down everyones throat (like fujoshi love doing by reposting yaoi fanart with otome characters under tweets totally unprompted), everyone is okay with everything, no?