What is your opinion on other peoples attitudes to otome games and joseimuke?

i do think that a lot of the hate toward otome games and joseimukes is rooted in misogyny and sexism, to a certain extent. it's interesting how media made primarily for women is often treated as inherently embarrassing while media aimed at men is much more likely to be taken seriously even when it has similar themes.

obviously not everyone who dislikes otome or joseimuke is misogynistic and people are allowed to dislike whatever they want. but when the criticism goes beyond simply not enjoying the genre and turns into mocking the people who play these games calling them cringe or acting like games made for women are somehow inferior i think it's worth asking where that attitude comes from.

nerim-w said:

And i totally understand that! Its a no brainer why women are so protective of these spaces when mainstream media is so full of the male gaze and male dominated spaces, especially in japanese media specifically.

I personally have enjoyed shounen all my life, but its tiring being in that space all the time in a genre and fandom that obviously doesnt think kindly to women. Otome is my safe space away from that toxic environment, with people that are much more similar to me and who actually respect female media for what it is

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While there are certainly people who say unpleasant things, there are also those who—despite having had no prior interest—try it out and find it wonderful. Although I still tend to stay within my own close-knit circles, the obsessive feeling that I absolutely *must* hide it is fading compared to the past. I really hope things continue to move in a positive direction, as I want this genre to flourish.

I can't think of any other reason besides sexism. it's one thing to not like the genre, but I've only seen people be this critical when it comes to any show/game/hobby with a female dominated space. there's plenty of "self-insert slop" in shonen as well but nobody ever mentions it since it's catered to men.

it's pretty weird how people hate on fangirls so much when we would have nothing in fandoms without them.

Existe uma tendência histórica de desvalorizar coisas associadas às mulheres. Como resultado, coisas consideradas "triviais", "frívolas" ou menos importantes acabam sendo culturalmente associadas à feminilidade. E o sexismo está tão profundamente enraizado que pessoas que pensam dessa forma podem acabar rejeitando ou evitando coisas que, de outra forma, apreciariam, simplesmente por serem vistas como "femininas".

fr4pp3cinn said:

The thing that particularly irks me is how people (and, sadly, many women as well) will pile on female hobbies for being "degrading" or "problematic", as if we're stupid and can't notice it's fiction. I never see those criticisms around male hobbies; even if some people say they criticize male media

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I really want to see how it would pan out if people started calling men-targeted series where male characters are abused, killed in gruesome ways for shock value etc. 'problematic' and 'degrading'...

0123456789 said:

If they aren't interested or don't understand, they could simply ignore it; I don't understand why they attack or try to exclude it instead.

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The following mentality applies:

Honestly There Is Growing Hostility Towards Anyone With A Not Designated " Safe Horny " Or Otaku Interests , Mostly Due To Slop Ravaging Tourists . . . . . Be Prepared For A Long Ass Yap . . . . . .

Men Honestly Get The Better End Of The Stick Despite Everyone Complaining About Their Gooner Games While Still Playing Them . I Think It's Mostly Cuz Of How Popular Danseimukesque Stuff Gets Popular Then People Who Only Participate In FOMO Complain About Shounen , WHY ARE YOU IN THE SHOUNEN AISLE THEN ? !
I Also Get It When Men Get Pissed About Yuri In Their Galge Harem Because I Don't Like It When There Is BL In My Otome , Men In My Yuri , Girls In My Yaoi , GL In My Galge Too ~
But I Also Think They're Overeaction Is A Bit Much When There Is Actual Not ShipBait Banter Between Characters , You Are Not Being Cucked .
But Also . . Stop Playing Gacha Games , These Companies Ain't Loyal , They Will Hop Beds To Anyone That Will Potentially Have Money ~ This Is True Of Any Company , But Especially In Live Service Arena Where It's Dog Eat Dog World ~

I Feel Kinda Like Kinda Like A Pickme Girl To Men When I Defend Their Stuff , But I Eat Danseimuke Up , Those Big Titty Maleslop Girls , I Love Those Chubby Big Furry And Bara Types , I Eat It All ! ! ! !
Then Again There Is Sexism And Misogny Towards Josei Spaces That's Undenible , It's Crazy How Many People Just Walk All Over Us And It Just Happens ~

More Projects Just QueerBaiting Stuff And How We Just Eat It Up , Them Gutting Romance / Content From Adaptations Just To Appeal To Safer Audiences . Especially In Otome How We Have To Just Deal With Egomaniacs Thinking Women All Love The Same Thing . Calling Amare Otome , Advertising Amare As Otome ~ How People Just Barge Into Otome And Demand They Have A Male MC , Also How These Self-Proclaimed "BL" Fans Casually Look Down On BL As Dark And R18 Trash Acting Like Otome Are Pure And Fluffy Genre Only ! There Are Sweet And Fluffy BL Games ! There Are Super Dark Otome Games ! Start Actually Looking And Ask For Reccomendations Instead Of Throwing A Tanturm For Somebody To Turn Your Brocoli Into Beef While Sitting And Not Doing It Yourself !

This Comes With The Misconception That Otome Just Means Dating Sim With Dudes , Especially Devs That Try To Milk The Otome Community With This New Goldmine ! I Feel Like Women Spaces Are Opening Up To Be Inclusive Of Anyone Who Isn't Sterotypically Male Instead Of New Spaces For Different Groups . Seperating Isn't Bad , Having Labels For Genres Isn't Bad , Sorting Is Great For Finding Stuff You Need . I Do Not Want To Muck Through A Pile Of Everything To Find One Type Of Thing ~

It Really Feels Like Being Forced To Share A Slice Of Dessert While The Men Can Just Have The Whole Cake ; I Don't Want To Always Check My Box Of Apples If It Is Filled With Other Fruit . This Problem Is Due To The Growing Online Culture Of Melting Pot Of Slop Stew That Everyone Can Eat For Maximum Profits ~ Combine This With The Internet Promoting Fandom Fighting Behavoir For The Engagment , You Gotta Fight For Your Genre Not To Be Basterdized . . . . . . . . . .

I Hate Going To An Otome Directory And Just Having Half Of Everything Just Not Be Otome , Only Having The Option To Be A Women Count ! I Hate Searching The Tag And Almost Everything Is Filled With Amare Slop ! I Hate Having Someone Make A Reccomendation List Of Otome To Be Just Filled With Not Otome ! I Hate Being Advertisied Not Otome To An Otome Sub ! I Hate Seeing A Devloper Getting Bullied For Having A FMC ! I Hate The Gaslighting And Changing Of The Genre And Getting Insulted For Trying To Inform People !

There's Also The Problem People Ignore That Just Changing The Gender Of An Already Set Protagonist With Just Changing Pronoun Values Negativly Impacts The Writing And Immersion . Readers CAN TELL What Gender The Protag Was Written As And It Feels Horrible To Experience ! Alot Of Devs Just Get Lazy And Don't Even Change The Writing To Reflect The Option They Gave You !

The Most Notible Example Is Rune Factory 5 , They Included A Patch With Gay Romance Options And You Could Tell How It Felt Like A Poorly Made Mod ~ The Main Problem With This Was That Orginally The Game Was Made For Het Pairings With The Female And Male Protags With Their Own PERSONALITIES , So When You Interacted With The Same Gender Your MC Immediatly Became OOC . Also The Fact That Now Love Intrests Are All Avaiable The Side Quest System Got Messed Up With You Constantly Activating Romance Events With Everyone If You Walked In The Wrong Place And Wrong Time , The System Was Balanced Around Het Pairings . . . . . . Also It The Game Sucked , It Looked Like An Unity AssetFlip ! Also The Only People Who Benefited From The Gay Options Were Literally Guys Because The Bachlorettes SUCKED , Being A Lesbian In This Game Is Terrible ! The Girls Are So Mid And Generic , The Plus Was That They Catered To Girls More But Wow ! Literally Play Any Other Farming Game For Good GxG Content HaHa ! I'm Sure Their Latest RF Game Was Better But I Can't Run it HaHa

This Is What Happens If You Don't Actually Put Care Into Stuff Like This , Literally Just Downloading A Gay Mod For Harvest Moon Is Probably Way Better And Made By People Who Care ! The Best Example I Can Have Of Care Put Into Gender Is Degrees Of Lewditiy , But That Game Is Stuck In The Limbo Of All The Story And Content Being Now In The Fanbox Equivalent Of Tumblr Asks And How I Feel Like This Game Is Being Shafted Into A Potential Man , Sorry That I Want To Play The Game To Understand The Game Instead Of Having To Sift Through Pages And Pages Of Headcannon Questions You Would Ask A Fanfic Writier For Updates On Gameplay And Character Devlopment ! Also The Fact The Rabid Part Of The Fanbase Using This As Ammo For LI Trench Wars Of Who's The Best And Unproblematic Rapist , But I Digress . . .

I Mentioned This Before , But If You're Playing An Amare As A Dude Or With A Dick , I'm So Sorry . . . That Shaft Is Going To Rust . . . . . . You Will Be Treated As An Omega , Your Cock Will Be Sucked As A Pussy , Your Ass Is A Psuedo Vagina ; You Will Never Be Allowed To Poke A Man's Butt With Your Rod Of Justice ! Almost Every R18 Amare Has Their Snu Snu Written To Have The Sex Be Easily Written To Be Interchangable , But You Can Really Tell What Type Of MC's Gender And Sex Was Written To Be The Base !

The Credit I Give To Those Rabid Danseimuke Fanbases , They Actually Tell Fake Fans Off For Being The Loquests They Are . Never Do You See It Being Hounded To Change Their Genre , Because They Actually Protect Their Spaces .

I read the comments and Yes I agree everything is rooted down to misogyny and women hate.
It gets even worse when men realize that we also have a sex drive and can enjoy a story with sexual content. Like that one Asmongold clip where he reacted to love and deepspace, even though it was tame compared to what we got later on. Sadly I believe we are getting back in the past in terms of women's rights, since Masculism is getting more and more common.
I even had a close friend tell me she couldn't play otome games as she felt like she was cheating on her boyfriend. That same boyfriend told me I was a disgusting cheating bitch who cucked her boyfriend for playing Otome games. Mind you I was playing otome games since I was like 11 and my boyfriend has no issue with that.
Men insecurities plays as well since some think playing a romance visual novel is the same as truly dating.
So yeah deeply rooted in misogyny and patriarchy sadly and we have yet to resolve that issue.

Like what the others said, I think a big part of it is just straight-up misogyny and double standards — and honestly, not even just from guys, but from people in general. There's still this stupid mindset where women are somehow expected to stay 'pure,' so when they see us enjoying otome/joseimuke, people immediately act like it's 'corrupting' or cringe. Meanwhile, male-oriented wish-fulfillment is just accepted as the norm. Even some women outside the space look down on it because of internalized misogyny lol.

And I guarantee most of the guys who criticize or make fun of us barely even know anything about otome or joseimuke anyway. They just make their own wild assumptions and their main assumption would be that it's definitely just like eroge since that's what they usually interact with. It's crazy though because I do remember when LaDs was at its peak, people — mostly men — were getting jealous over it. They were crying out, "Why can't we have something like this?!" Like come on, as if media hasn't mainly been catering to them since the beginning of time.

I think it's not only the otome games problem, but a problem of romantic-oriented genre in general. Galge and eroge (and isekai harem) is not in high regards with regular otakus, it's also a very niche genre. If you think there is a lot of praise for danseimuke media - you probably are seeing a loud minority. The same loud minority is very vocally not interested in joseimuke media, so there are many fights between the equally loud minority from otome side.

And then people see Internet holy wars and assume that it's a majority's opinion

satory said:

I think it's not only the otome games problem, but a problem of romantic-oriented genre in general. Galge and eroge (and isekai harem) is not in high regards with regular otakus, it's also a very niche genre. If you think there is a lot of praise for danseimuke media - you probably are seeing a loud minority. The same loud minority is very vocally not interested in joseimuke media, so there are many fights between the equally loud minority from otome side.

And then people see Internet holy wars and assume that it's a majority's opinion

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youre still way more likely to see criticisms of joseimuke media instead of danseimuke media. its true that all otaku shit is seen as cringe outside of anime circles, however joseimuke media are always met with extra skepticism

this is why every single otome game is being called "gay game" by your average otaku (im not talking about post-2020 weebs btw, but actual otaku) by default, because these people cannot even comprehend the thought of something not featuring men as the primary audience (also they dont believe women can be interested in self-inserting activities). same with infinity nikki being regarded as a "lesser game" just because its girly. or how otome games like sins of kaleido or jack jeanne or bustafe or collar x malice are being praised "despite being otome", as if otome is some shameful genre not worthy of any praise at all. also, remember how lads added a period tracker (aka a tracker for something 50% of the planet has to deal with), and men immediately went "haha females have officially outgooned men!!"? meanwhile all men get is jokes about yet another booby skin in azur lane

those critics never actually try to pick fights with men and male media, probably because they know theyll actually be met with a pushback. which is a shame, because women should be able to defend their interests just as fiercely!!

ultimately, because otaku sphere is overwhelmingly male-centered, you are indeed more likely to see people shit on danseimuke media. simply because it wins in numbers. however danseimuke media is NEVER dismissed as lesser just because it caters to males, unlike joseimuke media. i mean, most vn classics recommended to everyone are still primarily danseimuke, no? meanwhile people still struggle to accept that ooe or jack jeanne are just as gigantic in the vn sphere, simply because both of these are aimed at women
(id argue that this is also why people genuinely believe that vn as a medium is on its last leg, despite the fact that we are still getting multiple otome releases per year. but of course, according to these people, otome are not real games/vns anyway, which is why theyre not even taking them into consideration when speaking about vns)

ninnikuryona said:

youre still way more likely to see criticisms of joseimuke media instead of danseimuke media. its true that all otaku shit is seen as cringe outside of anime circles, however joseimuke media are always met with extra skepticism

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ninnikuryona said:

those critics never actually try to pick fights with men and male media, probably because they know theyll actually be met with a pushback. which is a shame, because women should be able to defend their interests just as fiercely!!

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I'd like to think this is not because of social standards or there are no women displeased with damseimuke media, but because women are more levelheaded and smart, even if we are talking about twitter population. It's not a game about who screams louder (and LADs company recently proved this). The screaming party is not a sightly thing to behold, no matter what they scream

satory said:

I'd like to think this is not because of social standards or there are no women displeased with damseimuke media, but because women are more levelheaded and smart, even if we are talking about twitter population.

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so basically women are staying in their own lane and dont interact with contents theyre not interested in much, unlike men who feel threatened when seeing big joseimuke games like lads or ln topping the charts

hib said:

I Mentioned This Before , But If You're Playing An Amare As A Dude Or With A Dick , I'm So Sorry . . . That Shaft Is Going To Rust . . . . . . You Will Be Treated As An Omega , Your Cock Will Be Sucked As A Pussy , Your Ass Is A Psuedo Vagina ; You Will Never Be Allowed To Poke A Man's Butt With Your Rod Of Justice ! Almost Every R18 Amare Has Their Snu Snu Written To Have The Sex Be Easily Written To Be Interchangable , But You Can Really Tell What Type Of MC's Gender And Sex Was Written To Be The Base !

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I don't have much to add that others haven't said already but I just wanted to say that I love this paragraph. "That shaft is going to rust" what a banger...! This should be the honest introduction cutscene to What in Hell is Bad lol

Like, I don't even mind protagonist selection (if it isn't sloppy like this but I guess that's rare). I'm for inclusivity, but most of the time it really does give off the impression that devs really believe a female protagonist just wouldn't be apppealing enough which is ://

Sorry ~
More WordsWordsWords ! !
Forgot Some Stuff . . .

Outsider Reaction Content
I Noticed A Rise Of Videos Of Guys And Non Joseimuke Fans Making Content Of It , I Feel Like That 4Chan Post Of How People Are Enjoying It The Wrong Way ;-; Especially Content Of How CRAZY Like HaHa !

Whenever BL , Otome , Joseimuke Work Or Drama Becomes Mainstream There Are Always Accounts ( Who Aren't The Target Audience ) Rip And Tear Into It , Make Fun Of The Fans And Just Acting Like They Are Superior . Those Videos Of People Going Into BL Who Aren't Into It And Having " Fun " , Those Vids Of People Bashing S&M Vampire Otome For Being Literally What It Was Called On The Name !

Don't Get Me Started On That Dog Drama That Brought In So Many Grifters Acting Like They Know How Joseimuke Gachas , Let Alone The Cultural Undercurrents ! I Saw The Most God Awful Vomit Inducing " Cosplay " From bbnos With Of Course A Laptop In That Conveniently Has His Concert Website On ~ Actual Loser Accounts Cheering On And Shitting On Women To Get The Game EOS , Then The Purity Checking On Being With The Boycott , The Arguements ! Infold Wants Everyone To Fight About Their Boys Like They Did In China As It's Super Easy To Just Farm Engagement , LI Stocks Go Up With Everyone Fighting For Their Best And How It Now Shifts Away From The Actual Problems To Let The Fandom Fight ~

These People Are Very Ignorant Of The Genre And It Feels Really Insulting To See How They Treat Joseimuke As A Whole , Although As I Said In My Messy Essay Above How This Just Went Into Bashing Otaku Hobby Stuff As An Outsider . Really Made Rethink How I Engage With Stuff I Don't Really Know With More Curiosity Then Ridicule ~
But There Are Good People I See Who Like It Or Respect It , I Enjoy That Content HaHa

Side Thing About How Gacha Devolpers Disgustingly Use Girls As Drama Shields
Title Says It All , Whenever A Drama Comes Up Of Cucking , Daring To Feature Males In The Omnislop Game Or Whatever , I See Devs Blame A " Rouge " Female Dev That Did This And She's Gone . Man , You Are In The Omnislop Dual Protag Gacha Game . . . . . . . . We All Are Getting Screwed Over
When The SnowBreak Got Censored , Weird People Coming Up Saying How Its Lads Girls Faults And They Deserve Their Drama ; The Groups Who Went Against Your Game Will Hate Lads As Well ~

The Only Reason I Complain About Gacha This Much Despite Not Playing It Because It's All Over Everything For Me ! At Least The Porn Is Great . . . . . .

April Fools And " Joke " Games Made By Non Fans
I Am Tired Of These Constant Never Ever Concepts Of Joseimuke Style That Never Get Developed Or The Same Stale Joke Just Became Insulting ( Animate )
Is It Really So Hard For Sincerity ? ? ? ? ? ? ? I Hate How Irony VNs Are Getting Popular By Newbz !

Schrödinger Female When Discussing Anything Taboo
You Are A Woman Who Is Independent And Free When You Agree With Me , You Are Just A Little Girl Who Knows Nothing And Is Just Confused When You Disagree With Me ~
Everytime I See A Drama Or Those Stupid Pog Face Youtube Thumbnails " Shoujousei Is Le Problematic ? ! ? ! ? " , Shitting And Infantilization Of Women When We Actually Have The Maturity To Comprehend Fictional Tropes .

Also The Fact How This Genre Of Joseimuke Games Hardly Have Gameplay , Thinking Women Only Can Play Easy Games . Please Give Me Hard Games ! I Love ARPG , TRPG With Extreme Difficulty ! ! ! ! I Am Tired Of Braindead Mobile Game " Card Slop " And Yet Another Generic Rhytmn Idol Game , Basic RPG Mechanics . . . Let Me Brainstorm Builds ! ! ! ! A Fighting Game Of Cute Boys Please Waiter ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Honestly , If You Want Joseimuke - Esque Games That Respect Your Intellegence And Skills , Go Play Old Roms On Emulators . . . . . . They Got Beautiful Boys And Fun Gameplay , But You Really Won't Be Pandered To As The Main Audience . . . . . . . . . . . At Least You Are Seen And Respecting At The Above The Bare Minimun That The Modern Mainstream Gaming Scene !

Some Examples : Mana Alchemia , P3P , Fate / Extra , RF 4 And TOD , Avalon Code , Summon Night Swordcraft , Harvest Moon , 7th Dragon , Fire Emblem ; Just To Name A Few . . . .

Grifting In Joseimuke Spaces
Due To How Bloated The Danseimuke Spaces Are , It's Not Suprising For Companies To Jump Into A New Market For A Better Chance ; You Can Really Tell How Much They Don't Really Care Though . . . . . . . . . . .

Especially On DLsite , Garumani Incident Really Showed How Big Suits Are Trying To Integrate ! I See So Many ASMR " Series " And Now I Am So Skeptical If These " Circles " Are Actually Indie Or Are Companies Larping As One For A Quick Buck ; They Got Character Songs , A Bunch Of Merch Lined Up Already . . . . . . .

Also So Many Cheap , Lazy Cashgrabs From The Joseimuke Audience , Even From Longrunning Companies . . . . Waiter , Another Idol Singing And Drama CD Multimedia Series Please ! Waiter , Gimme Gimmick Project ! ! ! Waiter , More ShipBait Series Please ! ! ! !

Actually Committing To Make A Proper BL Series ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
X X X X
Just Make VagueSlop For Fanfiction Theory Crafting ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
O O O O

It's Always Potential ManXMan Writing For BL Fans Under The Banner Of " Bromance " , Turning Intresting Concepts Into A Nothing Burger ToyBox Where The Fandom Does The All The Heavy Lifting !
Wonder Buisness Move Big Suits ! ! ! ! Offloading Writing To Your Fanbase Like They Are ChatGPT While They Are The Ones That Pay You For The Privilege ~


I Think That's All I Got Left . . . . . . .
I Sound So Hateful , I Swear It's Just Venting . . . . .

I have to admit, I find the situation pretty amusing when you think about it.
Otome games never really caused any major issues and were more or less unknown to the general public, but once *LADS* became so popular, all the harshest criticisms came pouring in.
But while we're at it, shall we talk about the games labeled as being for "gooners"?
I think the hypocrisy of it all would be good for a laugh.
The bottom line is: let everyone enjoy what they like.

If they're not interested, I wish they would just ignore it instead of criticizing it. No genre is inherently better than another, so I just wish people would let others enjoy what they like.

People hate women and anything that is target at women. That's why I keep fighting for women media to have space. I'll be proud of liking stuff for women and will also give my support to everyone who thinks the same. Screw everyone who talks bad about stuff that includes us. I would also be so shameful if I was a woman who condemns other women for liking women's stuff.

nerim-w said:

LMAOO but seriously, men have been used to being the default in every piece of media, theyve literally been raised in a world that automatically caters to their preferences without needing to search far and low. When women try to create a similar space for themselves its suddenly threatening to their own sense of security (mind you no one told them to stop watching what they like) calm down babe, the prolificness of mainstream male media is not going anywhere anytime soon...

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It's something like a mix of abandonment anxiety and the little emperor syndrome.

Hinakochan said:

I even had a close friend tell me she couldn't play otome games as she felt like she was cheating on her boyfriend. That same boyfriend told me I was a disgusting cheating bitch who cucked her boyfriend for playing Otome games.

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That relationship won't last long. Being nosy AND sadistic is a tiresome combo.

I love it when people get so surprised to see how well games like Infinity Nikki and Love and Deepspace are doing. I have had so many conversations with male friends before and they say that they didn't think game towards women would sell as much, I told them they're wrong. For some unknown reason a lot of the world thinks that anything that is centered towards women will not sell well. Like we're not human beings that enjoy any form of entertainment?

And if there is entertainment out there men will bully those women down, and sadly there are some women who will join these men in to seem like they are the better bunch. So we're even getting looked down by ourselves as well which is NOT fair! The world has trained people to not take women media seriously, so fat that it has affect women themselves. But when something like Nikki and LADS comes out, people are soooo shocked! "What? Women be gaming??" YES!!

nerim-w said:

LMAOO but seriously, men have been used to being the default in every piece of media, theyve literally been raised in a world that automatically caters to their preferences without needing to search far and low. When women try to create a similar space for themselves its suddenly threatening to their own sense of security (mind you no one told them to stop watching what they like) calm down babe, the prolificness of mainstream male media is not going anywhere anytime soon...

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Exactly, why can't they just let women have fun in their own space? I used to have this friend (ex-friend now) who got pissed everytime a game would have the option to play as a woman or games with only a female protag (like Horizon Zero Dawn), he called those games "woke" like man what? I guarantee that guy probably got mad when they announced Lucia in GTA VI

failedwebsite said:

That relationship won't last long. Being nosy AND sadistic is a tiresome combo.

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Yeah lmaoo I just hope she ditches him tbh, he's a terrible lover