Some random questions...

[GlassNoodles]

1: Can anyone explain to me (in simple, practical terms) the difference in usage between the は and　が particles? I thought I understood the gist of it, then I tried some practice exercises and completely bombed them - so now I'm totally confused. I'm using Tae Kim's Grammar guide, btw.

2. Also, how common is it to drop the vowel from す and し？ From what I've read it is only dropped sometimes, but going through vocabulary and stuff I've noticed it's dropped like 90% of the time, like in はじめまして、そですね and　どうして。 So just to get an idea, would you say it's dropped most of the time, some of the time, 50% of the time...? Or is it just kinda on a case by case basis? (Tokyo dialect) Just kinda want to get a feel for how I should be pronouncing stuff.

Is the vowel dropped for either of these? あした, しごと?


Probably really stupid, but it's been bugging me.

 

[pichu655889]

Don't take me as a reliable source, but...

From what I know は as a particle is used to indicate the subject (Subject + は) and が is used to indicate objects (Similarly, Object + が). は also replaces が when the clause has a negative meaning to it:

日本語が話せます。 - I can speak Japanese. (Positive sentence)
日本語は話せません。 - I cannot speak Japanese. (Negative sentence)

About す and し, I think it's more of a matter of speech? Like it is easier (or faster) to say "desne" rather than "desune" or "shigoto" rather than "shgoto" .

Finally it should be そうですね and not そですね.

 

[GlassNoodles]

Thanks for the correction, now that I say it out loud there is a long vowel there.

Anyway - I understand the dictionary definition of the particles, but something is missing. Like, you know when you study something or listen to a lecture in class and you're like "I totally get this" and when you take the test you're sure your answers are correct, but when you get the results back you're actually wrong more often than you were right? That's basically what happened, and I don't really understand why.

I'm hoping someone familiar with the language can give me a breakdown on the use of particles in practice...



Anyway, this was the little test I took, with the answers filled in.

ジム）　アリス　は　誰？
ボブ）　友達だ。彼女　が　アリスだ
　
アリス）　これ　は　何？
ボブ）　それ　は　鉛筆。
アリス）　あれ　も　鉛筆？
ボブ）　あれ　は　ペンだ。
　
アリス）　図書館　は　どこ？
ボブ）　ここ　が　図書館だ。
アリス）　そこ　は　図書館じゃない？
ボブ）　そこじゃない。図書館　は　ここだ。

I read the lesson before this over (for like the tenth time now) and I kinda get it, but I also kinda don't. I understand the theory, but in practical use sometimes they are used how I'd expect, and sometimes not.

(Also, they didn't cover the positive-negative thing in the lesson, that does help to explain some of it)

 

[pichu655889]

I'm guessing that you got Q1 and Q3 wrong?

ジム）　アリス　は　誰？
ボブ）　友達だ。彼女　が　アリスだ

and

アリス）　図書館　は　どこ？
ボブ）　ここ　が　図書館だ。
アリス）　そこ　は　図書館じゃない？
ボブ）　そこじゃない。図書館　は　ここだ。

I went on ahead to check my grammar guidebook, and this is what it says:

が is used after the subject noun that denotes the newly introduced item in the context. Note that an item can be marked by が when introduced for the first time, but is marked by は afterward in the same context as more details about it are explained. は can also mark an introduced item if the speaker knows that the listener recognizes him but that he/she does not have its information (Eg. Name).

紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。(First time the listener meets Mr Suzuki)

この人は鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。(Listener recognizes Mr Suzuki but does not know his name)

That explanation should explain the answers for the mini-test you did I think. There are more explanations of the usage of the particle in the book, which I am too lazy to copy down here. (Sorry! But I could if you want :) )

FYI, this is the book on Amazon.

 

[DreamCa7ch3r]

It was the same for me, I kinda got the hang of it after some time.

 

[mildis]

I read the lesson before this over (for like the tenth time now) and I kinda get it, but I also kinda don't. I understand the theory, but in practical use sometimes they are used how I'd expect, and sometimes not.

I think you read This Page and These Exercises


Natural languages are usually complicated something. There are many exceptions. And important thing is that the real sentences or sayings are not from the Grammar, but the Grammar has come from the analysis of existing sentences and sayings.

Therefore the grammar cannot explain everything. There are too many exceptions.

Anyway, "postpostions" Ha, Ga, and Mo are difficult things.

In the above page, the author writes:

Ha: topic particle
Ga: identifier particle (subject particle)
Mo: inclusive topic particle

These are the author's explanation. And the explanation shows the certain, limited aspect, function of each "postpostion".

The Author shows the folowing example:

ジム）　アリス　は　誰？
ボブ）　友達だ。彼女　が　アリスだ

In the view point of the Natural Japanese knowledge, These sentences are strange. Maybe not used usually. These are artificial sayings, composed for the purpose of explanation for beginner learners. In short, unnatural.

In the special background situations, these sentences may exist, or may be used. But not usual sayings.

And the next example:

アリス）　これ　は　何？
ボブ）　それ　は　鉛筆。

These sentences are also not usual. When an adult person talks with a little child, or a baby, he may say, or use this kind of saying. But these are artificial, not natural sentences.

The following 4 cases are possible, and they have correct in Japanese grammar:

1)
Kore wa nani?
Sore wa enpitsu.

2)
Kore wa nani?
Sore ga enpitsu.

3)
Kore ga nani?
Sore wa enpitsu.

4)
Kore ga nani?
Sore ga enpitsu.

According to the background situations, these 4 conversations are possible and correct Japanese sayings.

So if you are confused in usage of Wa, Ga, Mo, -- it is natural situation.


The author explains (defines) ONE usage or ONE rule. But there are many usages and many rules and exceptions.

In this chapter, you had better to follow the explanation or definition of the author. He explains one rule, or concept, so according to his explanation, you shall answer the question. Do not use the knowledge or info which you have learned in the other places or through other explanations.


You say:

I'm hoping someone familiar with the language can give me a breakdown on the use of particles in practice...

Impossible. There are no total breakdown of usage of any words. Postpositions (particles) are especially difficult.


However, I try to show rough "Bird's-eye view" usage of these postpositions (I call these "particles" as "postpositions")

To get this kind of "View" of usage, one should research Big-size Japanese dictionary, which explains both old usage and modern usage.

------

(Continued) reply is too long

_ mrd

 

[mildis]

The below are a bit high level explanation (not for beginner).

は HA, this is 係助詞 (Kakari-joshi), [present proninciation: "wa". In the old time, it was read as "ha" or similar sound]
( What is "Kakari-joshi". Roughly: When HA is used, always there is the 2nd particle or 2nd sentence in the total sentence. And in relation with this 2nd particle or sentence, the meaning/function of HA will be decided. HA is not used independently. "Kakari" roughly means "relation").

There are three representative usage of HA (there are other usages, but omitted).

1] SPECIALITY: To show the second element (sentence) has Special meaning, - 2nd sentence is special case etc. (example) （私は）あの男は嫌いだが、挨拶はする。Ano otoko HA kiraida ga, aisatsu HA suru. (Though) I dislike that guy, but I greet him. [explain]: greeting is "special" action. (People usually do not greet to whom they dislike.)

2] COMPARISON, CONTRAST: Like English expression: "On the one hand..., on the other hand..." (example) メアリーは可愛いが、ジェインはもっと可愛い。Mary HA kawaii ga, Jane HA motto kawaii. Mary is cute, but Jane is more cute. [explain]: "comparison" of Mary and Jane.

3] TOPIC, SUBJECT: Like English "As to (As for)". (example) お祭りは楽しかった。Omatsuri HA, tanoshikatta. As to the festival, it was amusing. == The festival was amusing. 犬は肉を食べる。Inu HA, niku wo taberu. As to a dog, it (they) eat meal. [explain] When one wants to say or express something (xyz) about the ceratain thing (A), "A HA, xyz == As to A, xyz." is used. A is the topic of saying. The contents of what one wants to say is expressed by "xyz" part.

------

が GA, this is 格助詞 (Kaku-joshi)
( What is "Kaku-joshi". Roughly: In English, there is "case" in nouns. In Latin language, there are 6 (7) cases in nouns. In Classic Greek, there were 5 cases. Usually, they are called: Subjective, Genitive, Dative, Ablative, Accusative, and Vocative (Locative was used in Old Latin. There is no Ablative case in Classic Greek). For example, second declension noun "dominus" have the following forms in each case: dominus, domini, domino, domino, dominum, domine. -us, -i, -o, -o, -um, -e are a kind of suffix. "Kaku-joshi" has the similar function as these Noun conjugation suffix. Very roughly:

が GA -- Subjective
の NO -- Genitive
に NI -- Dative
で DE -- Ablative
を WO -- Accusative

GA, NO, NI, DE, WO are representative "Kaku-joshi" in Japanese language. "HA" is not "Kaku-joshi" (It is "Kakari-joshi"). But "GA" is Kaku-joshi.
"格 Kaku" means roughly "case" in this case.)

There are many usages of Kaku-joshi "GA", but I think two usages are Representative in the contemporary Japanese language. (And sometimes "old Genitive" usage is used like phrase. In this usage, "GA" shows possesion, or belonging like English Genitive "of". In Modern Japanese, Kaku-joshi "NO" is used for this usage. (example) 我が国。Wa GA kuni. My country, or Our country.)

1] fact SUBJECT: Indicating the Noun is subject of sentence. (example) 太陽が昇る。Taiyou GA noboru. The Sun rises. 雀がコックロビンを殺した。Suzume GA Cock-Robin wo koroshita. The sparrow killed Cock-Robin. メアリーがきれいな声で、歌をうたった。Mary GA, kireina koe de uta wo utatta. Mary sang the song with beautiful voice. [explain] These sentences state the objective fact. Simple fact.

2] feeling OBJECT: In the special cases, GA Kaku-joshi indicate the noun is "objective", not "subjective. Special cases: To show "hope, wish, like, dislike, ability, posibility". (example) ジェインが好きだ。Jane GA sukida. (I/, Someone) love Jane. 葡萄酒が飲みたい。Budoushu GA nomitai. (I/ Someone) want to drink wine. 英語が読める。Eigo GA yomeru. (I/ Someone) can read English.

In the second usage of Kaku-joshi "GA", there is strange sentence (it loolks like strange.)
A) 私は、ジェインが好きだ。Watashi HA, Jane GA sukida. == As to I, I love Jane.
B) メアリーは、頭がよい。Mary HA, atama GA yoi. == As to Mary, her brain is good.

In A, "Jane" is not the subject of the sub-sentence - clause. Jane is the object.
In B, "atama" is the subject of the sub-sentence.

------

Comparison of Subjective HA and GA:

I have noticed:
In the case of 誰、何、どれ (Dare, Nani, Dore | Who, What, Which), GA is used. HA is not used as Subjective postposition. That is, there are "Dare GA", "Nani GA", "Dore GA". But "Dare HA", "Nani HA", "Dore HA" do not seem to be used. The reason. In my opinion, Dare, Nani, Dore, -- these are unknown and uncertain thing, so they cannot be the topic of statement.

"Dare GA koroshita Cock-Robin" (Who killed Cock-Robin?) exists, but "Dare HA koroshita Cock-Robin" is not used.
"Nani GA gen-in nanoka" (What is the cause?) exists, but "Nani HA gen-in nanoka" is not used.

Mary HA utsukushii (Mary is pretty) is opinion, statement, judgement of a speaker. On the other hand,
Mary GA usukushii (Mary is pretty) is not opinion. It is simple fact.


(Continued)

 

[mildis]

I went on ahead to check my grammar guidebook, and this is what it says:

/QUOTE/
が is used after the subject noun that denotes the newly introduced item in the context. Note that an item can be marked by が when introduced for the first time, but is marked by は afterward in the same context as more details about it are explained. は can also mark an introduced item if the speaker knows that the listener recognizes him but that he/she does not have its information (Eg. Name).

紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。(First time the listener meets Mr Suzuki)

この人は鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。(Listener recognizes Mr Suzuki but does not know his name)
/QUOTE/

That explanation should explain the answers for the mini-test you did I think. There are more explanations of the usage of the particle in the book, which I am too lazy to copy down here. (Sorry! But I could if you want :) )

FYI, this is the book on Amazon.

-------------------------

As to the examples which pichu655889 introduced. the difference of two sayings can be understood by the following explanation:

A] 紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。
In this case, この人 (this person) is (almost) totally unknown, uncertain for people, or listners. So "this person" cannot be the topic of statement. Therefore, "simple fact" is shown. Thus GA is used.

B] この人は鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。
In this case, people. or listners have already some information about "this person". So "this person" can be the topic of statement. Therefore, introducer's opinion or thinking is shown.

In the case A, "This person is Mr. Suzuki" is the Simple fact.
In the case B, "This person is Mr. Suzuki" shows the opinion or recognition of introducer.

The sentence "This person is Mr. Suzuki" is sometimes correct, and sometimes a lie (or, misunderstanding) etc.


Addition:

When first introducing someone, for instance, Mr. Suzuki, the below 4 sentences are possible: (practically usable)

紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。
紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼が私の旧友です。
紹介します。この人は鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。
紹介します。この人は鈴木さんです。彼が私の旧友です。

In Japanese dictionary, there is no explanation that "GA has function of emphasis". But practically, GA has similar function. It is "Specifying" or "Identifying", so the Author says GA is "Identifier particle".

Kare HA watashi no kyuuyuu desu.
== [In my recognition,] he is my old friend.

Kare GA watashi no kyuuyuu desu.
== He is my old friend. [This is the fact.]

When using GA Kaku-joshi, "This is the fact" is added in implication. So one can say GA has function of identification. And it brings "emphasis" effect.


And why the author of the grammar book introduced the above example:

紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。彼は私の旧友です。

Kono hito GA Suzuki-san desu. == This person is Mr. Suzuki. [This is the fact.]
Kare HA watashi no kyuuyuu desu. == [In my recognition,] He is my old friend.

-------------------------

_ mrd

 

[pichu655889]

[MENTION=41600]mildis[/MENTION];

That was a very detailed explanation. Thank you! I take formal lessons for Japanese and for some reason we are not allowed to use は in the particle section of our tests. As a result, we don't really see how it is used and I'm not too clear on the usage of the particle.

These sentences are also not usual. When an adult person talks with a little child, or a baby, he may say, or use this kind of saying. But these are artificial, not natural sentences.
_ mrd

I did think that the sentences sounded a little weird but wasn't sure...

 

[TheNej]

@mildis

You are correct in saying in your explanations of HA and GA about 係助詞and各助詞. Just wanted to add more explanation.

Using the example of introducing Mr Suzuki, "This man is Suzuki-san)", as you have noted, there are two possible ways:
紹介します。この人が鈴木さんです。　
Kono hito GA Suzuki-san desu.

紹介します。この人は鈴木さんです。
Kono hito HA Suzuki-san desu.

As you have noted earlier, GA implies emphasis on "Suzuki-san".

The difference between the two ways is the context in which the sentences are use.
In the first sentence がis used because the listener is already aware that Suzuki-san exists but haven't met him yet.
In other words we get this scenario:
1) Mr A and Mr B are talking to each other.
2) At some point in the conversation, Suzuki-san is mentioned.
3) Mr A and Mr B meet Suzuki-san and Mr A introduces Suzuki-san to Mr B.

In English, we would get - "This man is Mr Suzuki" (with emphasis on "this" implying "this man is Mr Suzuki, the guy we've been talking about"). The important part is that the existence of Suzuki-san has already been established to Mr B, either in an earlier conversation or in the current one before the introduction.


The example with HA is used when the listener is really meeting Suzuki-san for the first time, and "Suzuki-san" has not been mentioned in conversation earlier.

Likewise, with the examples of 彼が私の旧友です and 彼は私の旧友です。 (He is my old friend)
If the speaker has already mentioned that he has an old friend, then GA is used, if not, then HA is used.

In other words, HA is used when something is being introduced to the conversation for the first time. GA is used when the subject has already been established at an earlier point in conversation, and GA is used to refer to that point.

I hope this makes sense. I find it difficult to explain Japanese grammar. Never really think about grammar when using Japanese everyday...

 

[mildis]

To TheNej. i see. I understand what you wrote. I want to reply. But here, I want to use Japanese to state my reply. If English explanation is required, later I will write what I write in Japanese, in English.

TheNej さんのご説明は、日本語学習書著者が、日本語のパターン的な場面的言い方を教えるため、特定の状況を設定して、その状況に即して、ある種の「規則」あるいは「学習内容」を提示したものについて、明確には述べられていない、この「特定の設定状況」というものを、再現し、それに基づいて、なぜ、「が」と「は」の使い分けが起こるかを説明しているものです。その限りでは、分かりやすいと言えます。make sense というのなら、その通りです。

しかし、このスレッドの開始者が尋ねたことは、そのような内容ではないのです。TheNej さんが述べておられるのは、別の方が、別の教科書を引用して、この説明のように考えると了解できると述べたことに ついて、なぜそれが妥当なのかを、「特定の状況設定」を再現または復元して、説明していると言うことになります。その限りでは、分かりやすいのかも知れませんが、根本的に、このスレッドにおける最初の質問の趣旨とは別のものだと思惟致します。

「が」に強調（emphasis）の用法があるとは、少なくともわたしは述べていません。国語辞典を見ても、古語辞典を見ても、そのような説明がないからです。「が」の場合、specifying や identifying の機能があり、その上で、「端的な事実を叙述する」という用法があるため、この二つが組み合わさると、「強調の効果」が出てくるということです。実は、「は」についても、文脈や用例に応じて、「強調の効果」を持っており、そうとすると、「が」には、「強調」の意味があるとは言えなくなります。（従って、「が」には、広い視点からは「強調の意味はない」。しかし「ある」とすると、分かりやすい場合があり、その場合は「強調」だと説明すると、理解しやすいのです）。

「が」は端的な事実を叙述する。客観的な命題を表現するとも言えます。他方、「は」は、話者の意見、私念、判断、主観的な内容を述べていると言うことになります。つまり、「が」や「は」などの用法について、practical な usage の breakdown を示してほしいと最初の質問者は尋ねた訳で、わたくしの記したことは、この「問い」に対し、いったん、impossible と書いて、その後で、できる限りの Bird's-eye view を示してみたいという前置きで説明を書いています。

また、わたくしは、「が」と「は」はどう違うのか、というようなことは、説明できないのではないのかとも思っています。日本語の文法用語や構造概念が、欧米語（印欧語族言語）の構造に準拠したもので、どうもうまく合っていない。

わたくしの長い文書は、最初の質問者による、「が」や「は」の practical usage の breakdown を教えてほしいという質問に答えようとしたものだということを、考慮して頂ければ幸いです。 （とりあえず）。


Regards, _ mrd

 

[pichu655889]

これはもうレベルが高すぎて理解できませんｗｗｗ　

 

[Canaan]

これはもうレベルが高すぎて理解できませんｗｗｗ　

おはようございます、Canaanと申します。
日本人としては、海外の方ともっとお話ししたいと思っていますので気軽に日本語を使ってほしいなーって思っています。
日本人が話す英語もその国の人が聞いたら文法とかおかしいことも多々在ると思います。
私は色々な人と沢山コミュニケートをしたいと思っていますよ！

文法含め、日本語を学んで下さっている方々には日本人として感謝していますし、嬉しく思っています。
横から割り込んで話の腰を折って失礼しました。

 

[pichu655889]

おはようございます、Canaanと申します。
日本人としては、海外の方ともっとお話ししたいと思っていますので気軽に日本語を使ってほしいなーって思っています。
日本人が話す英語もその国の人が聞いたら文法とかおかしいことも多々在ると思います。
私は色々な人と沢山コミュニケートをしたいと思っていますよ！

文法含め、日本語を学んで下さっている方々には日本人として感謝していますし、嬉しく思っています。
横から割り込んで話の腰を折って失礼しました。

はじめまして、Canaanさん。私も同じく日本人ともっと話したいです。日本語も同時に練習できます。でも、日本語を使っている時文法や語彙の使い方が違ったりすることを心配して日本人と話す時いつも緊張しています。
もし何かが間違ったら遠慮なく正してください！

とりあえず日本語で自己紹介書いてみます。

 

[Curianhg]

Anyone kind enough to explain what does it say at the 1:24 minute pls, is there any info like name song ?

Thanks anyway ;_;

 

[yonakayume]

Anyone kind enough to explain what does it say at the 1:24 minute pls, is there any info like name song ?

Thanks anyway ;_;

稲の花 (Ine no Ka), sung by 藤田咲 (Fujita Saki... I thought it was Emi. It's Saki. I blame the super outdated Perapera Japanese add-on for Firefox). You really shouldn't revive super old threads like this. Just make a new topic next time.

 

[Curianhg]

This video has japanese sub lyric, just to let you guys know. And thank you for helping me ^_^
http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm22688888