HS mods : Shall we merge requests and split releases ?

[Dr Yoshi]

I'm running a small poll, here, in order to get your input about this issue : don't you think it's weird to have separate threads for the mod requests, while we have a single thread for all mod releases ?

Personally, I would find it much better if we had a single "Mod request" thread where everyone can ask for a specific mod, while having separate threads for each and every mod.

Ultimately, if the number of mods grow, we can also ask to have per-games sub-forums like we had on HF.

So, what is your input on the issue ?

 

[Dr Yoshi]

Thread moved to public "Modding Discussions" sub-forum for better visibility.

Votes are public and open to everyone, but a bigger weight will be given to modders' votes.

 

[Ram-0-Ram]

Strongly suggested to keep a single HS-Mod Request thread. Or else there will be so many threads and not many usually visit too many unread threads.. From what I can guess. The most requests will be clothing and accessories.
I like the sub-forum we have HF so it's the best option.

 

[Aastaroth]

For mod release thread, most of the posts are mod-specific. It could be a bug report on glossiness of shoes A, or an explanation on the 12th shortcut of plugin B. Users/modders can hardly search those information if they are mixed into one mod support thread. Therefore, splitting up mod release thread is a better way for both users/modders to give feedback and advice to each other.

Mod request thread is a little bit different. They are specific to tastes and preferences, but not to any particular mods/modders. Any modders who are interested can take part in it, but separate request thread does no good to them. Are any modders patient enough to open 20 threads and read all the details in it before they take up a request? I don't think many of them will do, and most of them will only read the thread titles, at most. If you put all the requests into a thread, not only modders can easily follow them (reading 20 posts in a tab is better than reading 20 threads in 20 tabs), but users can also draw modders' attention by having likes on similar requests/pictures on how the clothes look like/diagrams on some concepts in making utility mods etc.

 

[b00marrows]

In a perfect enviroment i think:
A seperate subforum for requests and submissions.
-Each subforum could have a "master thread" a stickied thread where they are links to the actual thread.
--Each request/release having its own thread it can be discussed and "answered"(in case of requests).
---Incase a request has already been made it will be "answered" by a link to the older thread.
This will likely need extra "moderation" but this would be a what i consider a "perfect enviroment"

But thats my opinion and i consider myself an idiot. HAHAHA!

 

[Dr Yoshi]

I'm happy to see this thread slowly getting attention.

Strongly suggested to keep a single HS-Mod Request thread. Or else there will be so many threads and not many usually visit too many unread threads.. From what I can guess. The most requests will be clothing and accessories.
I like the sub-forum we have HF so it's the best option.

Should I consider that you did a mistake while voting ?

If I understand correctly, you would prefer having a single thread for all requests (since they don't get that much attention) and one thread per mod (ideally with per-game sub-forums).

But you voted for a single thread for both requests and releases, so I'm a bit conflicted. Can you detail ?

For mod release thread, most of the posts are mod-specific. It could be a bug report on glossiness of shoes A, or an explanation on the 12th shortcut of plugin B. Users/modders can hardly search those information if they are mixed into one mod support thread. Therefore, splitting up mod release thread is a better way for both users/modders to give feedback and advice to each other.

You're right : the current setup makes it difficult to provide support / updates on mods.

At first, everyone was asking for support in the Modding Discussion, making the thread difficult to follow, and cluttered with unrelated messages : topics and questions about modding were buried in requests and queries from end-users.

So, I decided to split all the support-related queries in their own thread. I separated everything that is related to "using and installing mod", in order to make the Modding Discussion some kind of a "modder-only" thread centered around "creating mods".

But it's still far from optimal. The support thread is now a big dump of anything, ranging from requests that I split from the modding discussion (I put them in there for convenience) to updates from Alexae.

So, each mod having its own thread would be far better, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I believe this is something that should be done whatever the end result of this vote, because it would make life easier for everyone.

Mod request thread is a little bit different. They are specific to tastes and preferences, but not to any particular mods/modders. Any modders who are interested can take part in it, but separate request thread does no good to them. Are any modders patient enough to open 20 threads and read all the details in it before they take up a request? I don't think many of them will do, and most of them will only read the thread titles, at most. If you put all the requests into a thread, not only modders can easily follow them (reading 20 posts in a tab is better than reading 20 threads in 20 tabs), but users can also draw modders' attention by having likes on similar requests/pictures on how the clothes look like/diagrams on some concepts in making utility mods etc.

What I was thinking about is rather simple : once I have split all the releases in their own thread, I can move all the posts from the "support thread" in their respective mod release thread.

This would then allow me to convert the current "support thread" into a "request thread" and merge all the requests in it.
From this point, we can easily maintain the OP and use it to list all requests (not that many to handle).

Using the "like" to "vote" for a request is a nice idea. That's another good point in favour of the single-thread approach concerning requests.

In a perfect enviroment i think:
A seperate subforum for requests and submissions.
-Each subforum could have a "master thread" a stickied thread where they are links to the actual thread.
--Each request/release having its own thread it can be discussed and "answered"(in case of requests).
---Incase a request has already been made it will be "answered" by a link to the older thread.
This will likely need extra "moderation" but this would be a what i consider a "perfect enviroment"

To me, it feels like it's going to be a little bit too much work for the moderation team. If we had automated tools, it could be done, but we would have to make all those "master threads" by hand.

Also, there's that issue with the "request threads" not getting much attention. This is one of the reason why I want to merge them. Ramoram and Aastaroth seems to agree with this lack of attention, too.
If you look at the current requests, most of them simply have no reply. Except for a few case where, in fact, the users who made those requests decided to answer themselves or make the mod on their own.

Most modders would probably prefer having a single thread (or even better : a single post) where to look for ideas, since most modders would only make mods that fancy them (you won't work on something that's too far from your fetishes).

This is the reason why I think merging the requests could be a better approach. And, of course, having all the requests listed in the first post of that "request thread" in order to prevent them from having to browse pages of content to get an idea of what people are asking for.

 

[b00marrows]

To me, it feels like it's going to be a little bit too much work for the moderation team. If we had automated tools, it could be done, but we would have to make all those "master threads" by hand.

Also, there's that issue with the "request threads" not getting much attention. This is one of the reason why I want to merge them. Ramoram and Aastaroth seems to agree with this lack of attention, too.
If you look at the current requests, most of them simply have no reply. Except for a few case where, in fact, the users who made those requests decided to answer themselves or make the mod on their own.

Most modders would probably prefer having a single thread (or even better : a single post) where to look for ideas, since most modders would only make mods that fancy them (you won't work on something that's too far from your fetishes).

This is the reason why I think merging the requests could be a better approach. And, of course, having all the requests listed in the first post of that "request thread" in order to prevent them from having to browse pages of content to get an idea of what people are asking for.

Mmm, yes. that would work nicely actually. Basically a step down what i said, simplifying things. A thread instead of a subforum.
Now i think about it your idea works better for you AND the moders, when you count in the community size.

EDIT: sadly i cant change my vote now. HAHAHAH!
Just count 1 less for "Make it many threads for everything" and 1 more for "Change it".

 

[Ram-0-Ram]

If I understand correctly, you would prefer having a single thread for all requests (since they don't get that much attention) and one thread per mod (ideally with per-game sub-forums).

That's what I mean. Sorry English is not my first language so I end up misunderstood important points... (Also I don't know how threads and moderation funtion )

There is also I want to say. That mod requests are very few in every game. People usually get what's available in the release thread move along with it. This game is also not different. It's a new game there will be occasional request. Give it a month and the request thread will die out. People request depends if modders feel comfortable to do it like dark contents(doubtful majority want to work on it) or user and modder share a common interest.

Having a request thread is good idea but it will not go far, because many request will remain unanswered, it all depends on our mood. Common requests are often made: Full Translation?, Uncensored?, Yuri/Futa mod?, POV?, Outfits/Accessories from famous game/anime characters. There is also one thing you need to keep in mind that there are two websites HF and AS not everyone will know about this thread. Half are still hanging around in HF despite the bad connection. :D

 

[enimaroah]

One thread for requests per game is easier to moderate. We moderators just have to move the posts from other threads therein. Creating threads for people who just dont know that a request area exists can get tiresome. But there might be people who would like to start a debate on that idea, so I would not forbid creating separate request threads.

Having a subforum for a game with much attention like in HF would be good here as well. It creates a bit more load on the moderators, but I would appreciate it still because of the clearer structure. For less popular games a single release thread is sufficient. So not every game requires its own subforum.

 

[Dr Yoshi]

I'm allowing myself to bump this thread. I want a little bit more feedback from all of you before making a decision, even if there seems to already be a favourite option amongst modders.

Please vote and comment !

 

[corocoro]

I do think it's best to have separate threads for requests as well, though. It ultimately causes less work for both modders and staff, as it's easier to keep threads for different topics tidy and organized than it is to manage a single thread with everything thrown in. In the end, the same issues you've seen with a single thread for releases will also affect single threads for requests.
Having separate threads for requests provides the following benefits:
1. Automatically creates an index (forum + thread titles = index).
2. Handled requests can be closed, making it obvious what needs attention and what doesn't.
3. Discussions can spring up around requests without things becoming a mess.

Of course, it only matters if there's going to be plenty of requests. Otherwise the differences become indistinguishable.

Are any modders patient enough to open 20 threads and read all the details in it before they take up a request?

If there's a single thread, a modder would have to read all posts to figure out which requests have been filled and which haven't. That's going to take a lot more time than skimming thread titles, ignoring the closed ones, and then picking the ones of interest to you.

A seperate subforum for requests and submissions.
-Each subforum could have a "master thread" a stickied thread where they are links to the actual thread.
--Each request/release having its own thread it can be discussed and "answered"(in case of requests).
---Incase a request has already been made it will be "answered" by a link to the older thread.
This will likely need extra "moderation" but this would be a what i consider a "perfect enviroment"

Experience has shown that setup to be one of the most effective. Since I don't expect hundreds of threads for a game, a single forum with prefixes might be the better choice, though (you don't want to have twenty subforums).

You're right : the current setup makes it difficult to provide support / updates on mods.
At first, everyone was asking for support in the Modding Discussion, making the thread difficult to follow, and cluttered with unrelated messages : topics and questions about modding were buried in requests and queries from end-users.
[..]
So, each mod having its own thread would be far better, as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I believe this is something that should be done whatever the end result of this vote, because it would make life easier for everyone.

These arguments for release threads also apply for request threads.

From this point, we can easily maintain the OP and use it to list all requests (not that many to handle).

To me, it feels like it's going to be a little bit too much work for the moderation team. If we had automated tools, it could be done, but we would have to make all those "master threads" by hand.

I've done both thread-based and post-based indexes. The former is easier and quicker to maintain. ^^

Using the "like" to "vote" for a request is a nice idea. That's another good point in favour of the single-thread approach concerning requests.

Not all that many people use the "Like" feature and it's closed to guests. Personally, I find thread views to be a more accessible proxy for interest. ;)

Also, there's that issue with the "request threads" not getting much attention. This is one of the reason why I want to merge them. Ramoram and Aastaroth seems to agree with this lack of attention, too.
If you look at the current requests, most of them simply have no reply. Except for a few case where, in fact, the users who made those requests decided to answer themselves or make the mod on their own.

Well, the chance to get a response raises with the visibility of the request. That's one more point for threads. :P

One thread for requests per game is easier to moderate. We moderators just have to move the posts from other threads therein. Creating threads for people who just dont know that a request area exists can get tiresome.

Prefixes make it more likely people will realize what to do and not make the mistake in the first place. But yes, splitting threads causes more work than merging them. :(

 

[Dr Yoshi]

After rereading my previous message, it appears to me that I shouldn't post messages late at night on a weekday. It's awfully written and did a really poor job at imparting my stance...

So, let's elaborate a bit.

I do think it's best to have separate threads for requests as well, though. It ultimately causes less work for both modders and staff, as it's easier to keep threads for different topics tidy and organized than it is to manage a single thread with everything thrown in. In the end, the same issues you've seen with a single thread for releases will also affect single threads for requests.
Having separate threads for requests provides the following benefits:
1. Automatically creates an index (forum + thread titles = index).
2. Handled requests can be closed, making it obvious what needs attention and what doesn't.
3. Discussions can spring up around requests without things becoming a mess.

Of course, it only matters if there's going to be plenty of requests. Otherwise the differences become indistinguishable.

Ideally, that's how it would work. But, so far, this is what we have :

• Most users don't open request threads.
  
  They just drop a message in the Modding Discussion, saying things like : "Hey, when are we going to have an HF patch ?", "So, is someone working on the translation ?", "Can someone port this mod / outfit from Game_X to Game_Y ?".
  
  I saw and moderated a good dozen of those during the past week, and since we don't have a better alternative for now, I just moved those messages to the Mod Support Thread. Which means that the current number of requests in the Mod Support Thread should be superior to the number of real, dedicated request threads.

• Most moderators don't want to fork those requests into new threads.
  
  If we make a single thread for all requests, I would simply have to move them all in the Mod Request Thread and I'll be done. But if we have to make one thread per request, I can't move posts by batches : I will have to fork those messages one by one in their own thread, to give them a title, to give them a [Request] tag. I will have to keep track of all the current requests to check if it's not a duplicate of a previous one, in order to know if I should merge the post into a previous thread or make it a new one. In the end, it's going to be much more work that simply selecting all the misplaced requests and move them all in the same thread.
  
  Except if we do it like savages : we delete the post. We consider that users should know and understand that they have to open a thread to make a request, and we simply obliterate any request that doesn't match this simple rule... Knowing that most of them actually don't match this simple rule.

• Most members don't comment / debate / discuss on requests.
  
  They simply don't. If you look at the current request threads on AS, you'll notice that nobody replied to them, except for a few odd cases where the community basically answered : "Here are the tools you need, here is some advice. Now, do it yourself, and enjoy the ride."
  
  If we fork them all, we'll simply have dozens of threads with only a single message in them. And those will simply clutter the forum index, since they'll appear alongside "release" threads, lowering the mods threads visibility.
  And if we separate requests from releases into two different sub-forums, I can already assure that the one with the requests is going to be a ghost town.

• Most modders don't take requests.
  
  Modding takes time. I don't do it simply because it's way too time-consuming to fit into my schedule. That's why modders only release stuff that they have a deep interest into : you wouldn't spend 50 to 100 hours creating clothing or hairstyles that don't fancy your fetishes.
  
  So they don't take much requests : they either already thought about it and are planning to do it, or they already dismissed the idea because they can't invest time enough. Just look at all the "accepted" requests so far : they're all about porting old mods to current game, and almost every time the reply from the modder was : "It's already planned. I'm working on it."

That's how things are. I believe we're all too busy or too lazy to make a proper, functional "request" system for mods.

So, my plan was rather simple : we dump them all in a thread. Easy moderation. Then, once every week, I will browse the request thread and update the OP to include the new ones. And that's all there is to it. Because that's basically all there could be.
Eventually, if a request get a lot of attention, we may try to make some kind community event like the "Signature of the Month" one, in order to incentivise modders to make the request comes true. Or if it's something simple, we may try to organise some "modding challenge" open to inexperienced modders so that they can teach themselves how to create their own stuff.

But there will be a long way to go before we reach that point. Right now, I believe we should keep things simple and go with the flow : accommodate all those people that don't want to create and maintain new threads.

Except for a few rare case of specialised thread janitors (the Doctor says hi), nobody wants to have tons of threads and sub-forums to follow. This is one of the reason why modders only post their work on HF, even if they could just copy and paste their thread here on AS.
In this situation, there's only one good reason to create a new thread : to make it one of the only thread you have to browse and manage. New threads should not increase moderators and modders burdens, but lessen it. That's why separate "release threads" is great for modders : it concentrates release, updates, support, all in one thread. That's why separate "request threads" would not work : it simply dilutes information.

 

[Ram-0-Ram]

@Dr.Yoshi

For what you said from all your 4 points is practically true. In modding discussion they just throw some random request. Usually the request activity is high during new release that's slowly dies out. After some time, they will only post that existing mod download links is not anymore and ask for re-up links. Since modding is time consuming initially doing "trial-errors" and then releasing it. The end-users come back with a post mentioning a certain bugs in mod. Modders go back to their work-station to release another "bug-free" version.
It's all about modder's interest and their taste.
Some people who are like really wanted a particular mod and no one takes requests. They start doing it own their own work. When having trouble they post problem or share their files to modders so they can help the "beginners". This encourages the "beginners" to work and release more and we get more recruitment in the modding department.
So request can't be taken then start working on their own. Initially it's difficult but with time they can manage it.
I think we should talk about having more recruitment than about request. :)

"When there is a will there is a way...."

 

[Dr Yoshi]

And thus, the big "Split and Merge" has successfully been done tonight.

If you have any feedback to share, you're welcome to do so in this very thread.

Currently, I'm thinking about creating new tags / prefixes for the release threads, that would help to categorise the mods like on HF. Things like [Textures], [Clothing], [Maps], etc...

---

Addendum : Current ideas for the prefixes.

• Utility
• Uncensor
• Translation
• Clothing
• Map
• Texture
• Animation
• Sound
• MISC

 

[enimaroah]

In HF we had "Skin" which modders would use for 2d skins / GUI and for textures used for 3d rendering. But this isn't of great importance.

What about [Hair] ?

Can we get specific colours for each category?

 

[Dr Yoshi]

In HF we had "Skin" which modders would use for 2d skins / GUI and for textures used for 3d rendering. But this isn't of great importance.

We can split that into different categories, if necessary :

• [Skin] for all the character-related textures (like skin, eyes, etc...)
• [Texture] for all the other textures (like clothes, 3D props and maps, character cards backgrounds, etc...)
• [GUI] for all the 2D textures that are UI-related

What about [Hair] ?

Of course ! I can't believe I forgot that one.

Can we get specific colours for each category?

Yes. Any suggestion on the colour scheme ?

 

[enimaroah]

If categories get too specific mods start to get less findable. To have [Texture] alone is a good start. If this should get too crowded then there will be probably new candidates for categories.

[Texture] should not be used for an alternative of a clothes mod with a changed texture. But surely for textures which the game allows to be used directly or via plugin.


The colour-scheme, it would be nice to have them like in HF.
MISC, Clothing, Utilities, Textures, Translations, Uncensor, Hair, Animation, Patch, Sound

 

[Dr Yoshi]

Okay, let's push this forward.

We'll go for a similar yet improved scheme, with one additional prefix (for maps) and slightly vivid/darker colours to improve contrast and readability (since prefixes aren't bolded on AS) :

Prefix	Color	Hex Value
[MISC]	DimGray	#696969
[Texture]	Magenta	#FF00FF
[Clothing]	Sienna	#A0522D
[Hair]	DarkOrange	#FF8C00
[Maps]	DarkTurquoise	#00CED1
[Animation]	Purple	#800080
[Sound]	DarkRed	#8B0000
[Translation]	Black	#000000
[Utility]	Blue	#0000FF
[Uncensor]	Red	#FF0000
[Patch]	Green	#008000

It looks pretty good to me. If there's no problem with that, I'll forward this template to the Admin Team. Any objection ?

 

[enimaroah]

Not from me. And should anyone would want a different colour, it can be changed. But I think it is good and clearly readable.