The Supernatural vs. Science

[UtsukushiiOto]

I know there's a thread related to "black magic/vodoo thing", but I wouldn't want to keep this conversation limited to magic only.

Undertaking the role of an unbiased spectator and a witness of countless debates related to this subject, I'd like to express my current, "freshly baked" opinion.

On one hand we have believers in God, religious people, those who claim to have seen the future, and those who insist on being psychic. On the other hand, we have naturalists - people who chose to live, solely relying on common sense and science.

Now, don't take this to heart, regardless of the side you're on, but to me, both seem as ludicrous.
Some groups of spiritualists refuse to believe in certain areas of science, if it goes against the teaching of their religion. Whilst some realists angrily refuse the nature of supernatural occurrences, and jump straight into calculation and experiments, hoping to disprove anything unscientific.

But at the end of the day, science, as well as religion, are merely languages that analyze and explain things. Scientists claim that "Nothing is written in stone", thus, generally speaking, they themselves admit that science is imperfect. Inherently, believing that science is absolute, means believing into complete perfection, which, ironically, is the ideology of a romanticist and a dreamer.

Thus, putting science aside, my standpoint regarding anything supernatural is rather positive.
To begin with, I'd like to quote several lines from Kara no Kyoukai, which severely raised my interest in this subject.

Let's compare the human brain to a TV. Both your brain and mine have many different channels, but they're always fixated on the most-watched channel of all... Channel 8. In other words, they only have eyes for the programme called Common Sense. Because that's the easiest way to lead a peaceful life.
Those who are called psychics, live beyond the scope of such common sense. For example, by turning on Channel 4, let's say you were able to move objects telekinetically. But in doing so you would never glimpse Common Sense on Channel 8, would you? ... Your very existence would be an anomaly.
Which is why we refer to such psychics as follows: Unfit Existences.
...
It is unprecedented for anyone to posses two channels and use them simultaneously. Or should we assume that there are actually more than two channels?
...
How to turn an unfit existence into a fit existence? You'd probably have to kill it. After all, destroying abnormal channels is the same as demolishing the brain.

Now, I'd probably end up writing a book, if I were to share every single of my hypothesises and beliefs related to this subject, but one thing I'd like to emphasize is related to perception of reality. It would be ridiculous to claim that every single living being perceives, analyzes and interacts with reality in an equal or similar manner. Referring to the quote above, the 'mainstream' method (common sense) is more of a survival instinct, which we cannot go against or bend at will. However, if beings with fundamental oddities, which affect their perception of reality, their minds and subconsciousness, exist, it's quite fair to conclude that any supernatural occurence or anything out of the ordinary is quite authentic.

Feel free to share your opinion :D

 

[Frankincense]

Hi Oto, nice topic.

For me, both religion (Allow me to use the term "religion" to represent the supernatural because I assume it gives us the clearest picture and they're the closest "supernatural" things to us.) and science are subjective. While believers try to disprove physics with words in the scriptures, scientists try to disprove miracles with scientific method. It's like two foreigners with different tongues are having an argument. Such is an utter waste of time.

There is a reason why believers never disprove physics with scientific method and scientists never disprove miracles with words in the scriptures.

The ironic thing is, they argue against their own kinds. There is no universal science in the same manner as there is no universal divinity. Belief is divided into religions and science is never more united. We have polytheism, monotheism and atheism. And we have determinism, free will and compatibilism.

Umm let's forget about the last paragraph. For me, the concept of science or religion is unnecessary. It's human's inability to perceive everything that generates debates. People shouldn't try to claim that they're correct while they even accept themselves that they can't understand everything. Look at uncertainty principle and divine hiddenness.

I believe in subjectivity. The smallest unit isn't doctrine or philosophy. The smallest unit is individual. People should be subject to only their own thought. Because, like Oto said, (Allow me to copy and paste your post =P.) it would be ridiculous to claim that every single living being perceives, analyzes and interacts with reality in an equal or similar manner. Why struggle to achieve the impossible, making everyone share an identical thought? We are separate beings. We are no hive mind.

That is all. Consider this a shared opinion, not an argument. Because I, for one, believe in subjectivity. ; ) I don't actually mind people quarrel, but don't expect me to take side.


EDIT: Another clear example is the theory of evolution.

Some point to dinosaur's bone and say it's the Designer's work to test your faith. Some gather various fossils to compose the Tree of Life.

We may never know who is right. The only way to find out is maybe to wait for a scientist to invent the longevity and live for millions of years to observe the change in species.
But hey, isn't it a scientific approach to deduce things from observation?
So it all goes back to this sentence: there is a reason why believers never disprove physics with scientific method and scientists never disprove miracles with words in the scriptures. (Replace "physics" with "biology".)

 

[hamid]

thanks for posting this tread... nad allow me to share with you some idea.. and please try to understand what i like to say (forgot about my weak english ONEGAI!!)

well, to began with, i'm a religious person, and i believe in GOD like i see him (please let me continue) is not like i see him physically but iwould say i see him beyond his creation 'animals- univers-ect....) ... i know that the world where we live dont help you keep your faith tight, but the wisdom of GOD is more and more vaste than we can understand or imagine, is like trying fill a sea on a little cup....

i have been attired with the fact that the theory of evolusion is a fact, and nobody has right to say opposed ideas about this theory...

well, i'll be neutral, not attached to any side 'evvolusionist-creatonist' and give you a simple exemple of "the death bearth of this theory":

* the theory say that the life bgan with the bearth of the first cell with just external effect and without intervention from GOD, so is born by chance, thanks to math propability we can calcul the odd of the bearth for the first cell:


Morowitz’s probability calculation

The probability calculations cited above are in agreement with a calculation by the biophysicist Harold Morowitz. He assumed he had broken all the chemical bonds in the E. coli bacterium and released all the atoms comprising it, and then calculated the probability of these atoms spontaneously recombining to give rise to the E. coli once again. In this theoretical experiment, all the atoms required are present in all the appropriate quantities, and it is assumed that no other atom can become involved from the outside. Nonetheless, he calculated that the chances of all the atoms coming together spontaneously in a specific order, despite their being in the appropriate numbers and in an appropriate environment, in such a way as to produce an E. coli bacterium was 1 in 10100,000,000,000.[3]This goes far beyond being merely impossible. Such a number reveals the impossibility of even the least complex organism in the universe forming by chance, even if all the conditions and materials are brought together.

 

[riwjin]

In Japanese, if I recall correctly, superstition is "迷信"

"迷” to lost ways
”信” to believe

To believe blindly.

Anyway, things Scienc(tists) can't prove (yet) doesn't mean it's not there.

Our knowledge are still utterly limited at this point.