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    Cynical Philosopher Joyjason's Avatar
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    How2Debate

    Thank you, FinalPyre!

    EDIT: Okay, so... Let's start another serious discussion.

    Quite recently, I put up a review for an eroge titled "Hatsuyuki Sakura". It was released on my birthday last year, and I had finally gotten to playing it since a lot of the people said it was good.

    Long story short, I liked it, but hated it at the same time. Read the review (WARNING: It DOES have spoilers) if you want to know why, but that's not the point of this thread.

    What I really wanted to bring to attention was that some people are deemed stupid because they simply do not understand what a "debate" means. According to Dictionary.com, a debate means
    1) A discussion involving opposing viewpoints OR
    2) A formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.

    So how does that have to do with anything?

    It turns out, one of the earliest individuals who didn't like my negativity on the review and started to oppose me. Now, being opposed is fine, but what really annoyed me was that this person wasn't doing it right. Here's our "series of comments" that I've saved up.

    It's protected with spoiler tags as it DOES contain spoilers to the game. Please don't read them if you do not wish for the story to be spoiled. On the other hand, it's really long, so you might just want to skip all the way down to the bottom instead.

    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    Great that you read HatsuYuki Sakura almost 2 years after it’s release. I don’t agree with some of your comments.

    Hatsuyuki:
    you say he changes his emotions too rapidly. He has feelings for Ran, but those are both romantically (in some sense) but probably more importantly he sees her as family as well. Because she was there for him since Hatsuyuki was a child after that incident.
    His feeling for Aya were definitely romantical as well, but he was forced to let her go in that route. It was still noticable later that he still had some feelings for her.

    You mention a 2nd flaw that the regular heroine route does not correspond Hatsuyuki’s actions in the true route (and the bad end Ran/Sakura’s first route). That’s because in those routes he let go of his revenge because of that heroine (which was the most obvious in Yoru’s route). In the true “Graduation route”, he didn’t give in of wanting to take revenge untill Sakura got killed . After that he got tempted by the ghosts to particpate in the “Ghost Parade”, because they convinced him that Sakura got get revived after taking vengeance on the city.

    3rd flaw: Hatsuyuki is weak. While he did beat up many nameless and faceless grunts, he did get beat up alot in the routes but i find it understandable.
    Sakuya: She is basically a supernatural ghost slayer armed with a silver sword (which is meant to kill ghosts). Hatsuyuki is partially ghost , so the sword is very effective against him and Sakuya is the strongest character in Hatsuyuki Sakura
    Vs Aya: she was together with her brother Kendo specialists on a national championship level. She even can hold her own against sakuya in the Graduation route, so i am not surprised Hatsuyuki lost to her without using his ghost powers


    Me:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    Great opinions, which I’ll try to answer as full as possible.

    Also, if I’m not blind, it hasn’t even been one year since this game’s release

    Regarding “letting go of Aya”, your wording is definitely valid, but he had a choice–he was not “forced” to let her go. He could either show Aya the diary (which was the key item in the Graduation route for bringing her memories back), or he could shut up about it and treat her like a stranger. As we know, he performed the latter.

    One thing I would have to comment in addition is that Hatsuyuki still decides to perform the revenge despite Aya’s route. He would have understood that destroying the city = destroying Aya too, so there’s a bit more information that suggests despite his “affection” for everyone, it was greatest for Ran (or Sakura).

    The two elements above show two possibilities. Either Hatsuyuki didn’t “love” Aya as you think he did, or he loved her too much to the point he wanted her to live a life without him. Either way, this shows that his “emotions” changed too much throughout the story, since it assumes Aya’s route was preceding of all the other routes. I do believe your second point happens to support this argument

    Second point. I understand that his anger and emotion “disappeared” after being connected with a heroine, as you said. In the book of Genesis, Abram begged God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah if there was at least 10 righteous people living in there. This is pretty much what happened with Hatsuyuki–he decides not to perform his revenge because his lover lived in the city. How does this support my argument? He decided to perform the revenge even after “Aya’s route”, but suddenly cancels it in the other heroine’s routes.

    Last Point. You forget that Hatsuyuki is shown to already be proficient with controlling Ghosts in Aya’s route. However, it also shows that the ghosts can be beaten up with regular, wooden swords as well (as shown when Hatsuyuki fights Tsuma and Aya cuts in when Hatsuyuki tries to call in the ghosts again)

    So then you question the meaning of these ghosts, and whether or not they’re actually something to even make a big deal about. Considering how the city is capable of being destroyed by its army, the story suggests they’re powerful. Obviously, the story then contradicts this, as you see characters like Sakuya kicking Hatsuyuki’s ass without even much of a fight.

    Conclusion. Hatsuyuki is no better of a protagonist than other “hetare” protagonists out there. He’s weak, childish, and has a really unstable mindset. The game’s supposed to show the transition from him being controlled by anger to having a peaceful mind, but instead of Hatsuyuki learning that himself (as would a “Good Story” have), he is MADE to do it.

    Does the word “Domestication” sound familiar?


    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    About point 1 with the revenge in case of Aya, he was blinded by rage in Shirokuma’s, Ran’s and Sakura’s routes and people won’t think rationally in some cases
    Also Aya’s route happened 1 year before the start of Hatsuyuki Sakura. It’s the only canonical route aside from the true route.

    About your second point, not true. In Yoru’s route he saw part of himself in Yoru, because she had a grudge towards all the people in the town (calling her cursed etc. and more ugly stuff) and that grudge created a “wraith” in the form of “Mare” who tried to summon the ghost king to destroy the town. At the end of that route he gave up on his revenge after seeing her overcome her own grudge and wanting to realize her dream.
    In Shirokuma’s story Hatsuyuki went ahead with his revenge and he came to his senses after Shirokuma got nearly killed in the fire and saved her before dying.
    He never had the idea of wanting to destroy the town in Nozomu’s route at all
    Aya’s roue happened 1 year before Hatsuyuki Sakura started, which means it was 1 year too early for the “Ghost Parade” and he could not have started his revenge anyway.

    last point: Profficient , but not nearly at the level of Sakura. In fact Sakura was the bigger threat for the town because she was essentially holding back a greater force than Hatsuyuki did. That’s why Sakuya made a deal with Sakura: to fullfill Sakura’s wish so that she could pass on happily and that would have stopped Sakura’s more powerfull army of ghosts that she was holding back.

    The army of ghost are a threat because in the true route, Hatsuyuki had to be weakened first by a magic circle danced by Yoru before they could even fight him equally


    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    Forgot to mention but Hatsuyuki feels forced to take revenge, because he was convinced that it was the only way to get Ran (in the first bad end) and Sakura (in the final true route) back.

    Also Ran’s soul was basically a “wraith” as well. Wraith’s can’t be killed normally (not even with the silver sword as demonstrated in Yoru’s route, how Mare came back) while she was definitely slashed by Sakuya at the beginning of Aya’s route (which was basically a flashback route) and came back alive and hid herself. (i had suspicions that the owner of the “Kandelaar” cafe was Ran, because the owner knew alot about Hatsuyuki and the cafe was puppet themed)


    Me:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    Good points.

    Regarding your first defense, I’ll have to refer back to the prologue where Hatsuyuki saw Konohasakuya when he brought the entire group back to the hotel. He didn’t attack the person he wanted to avenge so much for a reason, although it was pretty much his home territory.

    One can only make assumptions. Why Hatsuyuki doesn’t destroy the town is not explicitly stated, but I would have to argue that my theory, about how his “lover was still living in the town” is more fitting of an explanation than “Seeing his lover overcome her hardships”. My reasoning for this argument is that Hatsuyuki isn’t prideful of himself. Of course, this assumes that he has the psychology of a normal human male, but he won’t simply change his mind because of someone else. Remember that he already hates everyone in the city to destroy it.

    Again, your example of “Shirokuma’s route” supports my above statement that his “paradigm shift” occurred most likely from having a lover–not because “he saw someone else like him overcoming her hardships”. How he was able to lead Shirokuma out in the burning Hotel but decided to die himself is also irrational.

    Second. While you are right about him not disappearing (ultimately) in Nozomu’s route, he still poofs until she graduates. Why? Considering he didn’t perform the revenge, do you think he saw himself in Nozomu and was moved to not destroy the city?

    So the game mentions that he’s not “ready”… Well, he was never ready because he was always caught off guard, no? What did he need to get ready for? What kind of change did he even have? The most plausible guess is that he needed to have more “hate”, but really, that emotion was at its climax when he lost Ran.

    Again, you are assuming that the protagonist had no choice. He was NOT forced to do anything. He was simply sweet-talked by the ghosts around him, and had the desire to do anything to get Ran back. Had he known that revenge won’t get her back, he would’ve searched for other ways.

    Regarding Ran: You state the obvious. What are you trying to prove? For the reference, the owner and Ran have different CVs, with the owner also admitting that she’s a ghost. It’s likely that she was simply always around Hatsuyuki if you want to question her omniscience.


    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    His anger was not only towards Sakuya but the whole town in order to get Ran back. You forget that he has to fullfill conditions for the ghost parade which was somewhere in march.

    He didn’t hate the town untill Ran got killed though and then he saw how rotten the town was when doing jobs for Akira.
    As for the shirokuma statement, it’s not. He had no problems tricking Shirokuma into comming to the hotel to force out her grandfather in showing up for his revenge.It was that he almost killed that he realized that what he was doing was wrong.
    No idea on Nozomu’s route because frankly her route was not even about the whole ghost incident but more on the Shirosaki Yankees

    Not ready as his revenge was primarily aimed towards Shirokuma grandfather and that the ghost army was at it’s strongest during the parade of ghost, the “Ghost parade” which is at the end of the winter right before spring.

    I am not stating the obvious on Ran, because HatsuSaku has the tendency to reuse seiyuus. Akira and Yoru’s little brother have the same seiyuu, Miiku (that girl in Yoru’s route) and Megumi have the same seiyuu and many seiyuus were reused as people gossiping on the ghost stories at the start of each chapter.


    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    Hatsuyuki manages to almost destroy the whole school in the 2nd drama cd while being nearly unstoppable when he was rampaging. He was stopped by Ran if i remember correctly
    And after Ran stopped him, he let himself get stabbed by Sakuya to halt his rampage
    Sweet talked by ghosts while he was in a depression after losing a loved one.


    Me: This is where I finally snapped.
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    It is my request that if making a debate, you be clear on your arguments, providing
    1) Argument
    2) Justification
    3) Refuting the opponent
    4) Conclusion.

    Scrolling up and down, it’s not hard to see that your arguments suddenly change from defending Hatsuyuki to mentioning the “Ghost Parade” which was originally not our topic.

    While I understand your frustration of a reviewer who seems to be criticizing what seems to be a game you enjoyed greatly, please make direct arguments against my statements even if you must use your own opinions to justify them.

    Hopping back and forth while quoting Drama CDs is not a good way to “conclude” your argument against my “Hatsuyuki is weak” opinion.

    On that topic, you quote the obvious again several times, including the details of Shirokuma’s Route which I omitted in my review on purpose. You also don’t support your claim that Hatsuyuki stops his revenge due to a certain factor outside of Yoru’s route, and also state the obvious: “reusing CVs for subcharacters”, which is a common thing to do for games where there is a lot of characters the producers wish to voice.

    It is painful for me to have to erase these Comments due to them being more of a spoiler than I wished for it to be, and I ask that you
    1) Don’t simply state the plotline, because it’s a spoiler and you’re not proving anything by just saying what happened, and
    2) actually answer to my arguments.

    Otherwise, you’re just avoiding the debate that you’ve started, and that’s not a polite thing to do.


    Opponent:
      Spoiler: Spoiler 
    The thing is that it was mentioned before the first opening that Hatsuyuki was waiting for the right moment to exact his revenge and at that time he hoped that his act would fool people into believing that he was a normal person (especially he knew that the bunny was Sakuya and Sakura wanted to find the ghost child)
    The right moment is the ghost parade when he and his ghosts are at their strongest. I am sure he was not confident at winning if he would try to attack Sakuya in the prologue.

    Also Ran and the owner don’t have different CV’s though, listen closely and you will notice that both the owner and Ran have similar seiyuus and i heard 七原ことみ in other roles before and she sounds like a more serious version of 諫見芳乃 in 神聖にして侵すべからず


    The last reply is where I simply decided I won't waste my time with this idiot and simply removed the entire series of comments.

    As you can see from reading the posts above, I directly confront his "opinions" with arguments and logic, while the opponent starts out with his opinions, but as I refute them effectively, resorts to simply restating something completely different from the original debate (which happens to derail the entire conversation), and refuses to make a valid argument. Furthermore, as I've directly said in the last paragraph, he was simply saying too much.

    For the record, his avatar was Sakura too, so I would guess that he's a very avid advocate for the title.

    Despite this, that's no reason to simply "run" from arguments that have been refuted. I could've probably cornered him even further, but I didn't want to waste my time any more and I also didn't want anyone else to see the comments (as they were "too much" of a spoiler which I didn't want other readers to see).

    So discuss.
    What do you think of this person? Is he good at debating, or is he someone who should have his tongue cut and not even be allowed to speak? I really think it's the latter, but if you have different opinions, feel free to share them.
    Last edited by Joyjason; February 15th, 2014 at 02:51 AM.

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  3. #2
    Old King Boredom FinalPyre's Avatar
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    Re: How2Debate

    I'm unsure what you mean. If you want to see how to spoiler something you do it like so:

      Spoiler: This is spoiler content!! 
    Everyone dies!
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    [email protected] wehasband's Avatar
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    It's really hard to follow most of your discussion since most of it consists of characters/plot I am not familiar with. Thus yours truly cannot make a correct judgement of what is fact and what is opinion, something very important in debates. To make it simple it is like being asked to resolve a conflict between two pedagogy professors when you don't even know the difference between conditioning and the social cognitive theory.

    That said, I believe arguments done on the internet should never be taken seriously, since everyone believes that they are as correct as the other guy. And no amount of persuasion can change that if the involved parties only agree to disagreeing. Young people usually have the strongest ideals to the point that they can hold great debates against their parents about behavior, haha, but I digress.

    Jjayson, you hold some interesting yet strong opinions. However, all your good arguments fly out of the window once you resort to verbal abuse and start calling the other party names. Without the other party to state his side of the debate and with you having deleted the comments, we can only take your word concerning the exchange between you and that guy, someone we don't even know enough to judge.

    Was the point of this thread to demonstrate how to observe debate protocols or is it about how much of an 'idiot' the opposing party was?
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    Cynical Philosopher Joyjason's Avatar
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    Re: How2Debate

    Frankly, I'm too proud to even engage in such "modifications" to give myself a supposedly an "unfair advantage" in the debate. All the comments are copy-pasted AS IT IS (except for one part when the other party posted three comments in a row and I didn't want to put spoiler tags for all three of them).

    My point was that even if you didn't understand the plot, a person can definitely see that I've been answering his arguments with a clear and reasonable defense. On the other hand, he refuses to do so, or makes a weak defense, or simply changes the topic.

    Note that within ALL the comments (both me and him), there are no insults exchanged. I simply express my anger at the "stupidity of the weeaboos" I've been constantly talking about for the past year or so, and show undeniable proof that while they may not be stupid, they sure as hell do not know how to perform a debate.

    Debate, even on the internet, can be done. However, just as how a debate won't connect if one person is an idiot, I would like to beg your pardon and state that our "debate" was simply him blabbing to no end thinking he's the best in the world. Note that my last comment involves me directly approaching him with this matter, except he does not acknowledge it.

    Simply put, most countries require a driver's license to drive a car--that's obvious.
    If you can't use your tongue responsibly, then that person shouldn't be allowed to even talk.

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    おわり GenKiDan's Avatar
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    Re: How2Debate

    I will take a look later if I find time or energy and want for it Joy. But won't make any promises, this will serve as a reminder to myself to maybe do it later if it's still of any interest.

    A coomon problem with ppl often times is two or threefold, -Mental weakness, -Innate dishonesty, -Vanity, these three lend each others mutual support in many cases. Example, they might start of honestly thinking they are right, then after being proven wrong, then instinctively feel the urge to defend their position, or more subtly at the very least find some kind of justification or excuse for it. They may now loose sight of right or wrong and fight a war of vanity, ego, "damage reduction" and develop all kinds of cognitive biases along the way making the most base individuals even fully believe they are right in their own mind(since they have long since lost the scope of the discussion anyway they just continue to argue from "point to point" like a soldier fighting from corner to corner, blow up his corner and he will instinctively find some other corner to fight for in order to not be(feel/appear) exposed/wrong), i.e some ppl will believe their own arguments even if they are rubbish, not because they are reasonable but because thats all they have to cling on too. And their subconscious minds demands them to, in order to consolidate their beliefs in accordance with their actions/words/views/position they must adapt into their minds for the sake of the discussion ect, in order to avoid cognitive dissonance. And more, but why write more now...

    In closing, Foolishness is irrational and closely related with madness. It's been said, that 'the root of all mental problems is the unwillingness to experience genuine pain or suffering'. You may perhaps begin to see a partial connection then.
    Last edited by GenKiDan; May 25th, 2014 at 02:41 AM.
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